Another "Best Metal Bass" & Gear Thread: DOOM/DRONE

[Big_Daddy]

Whatever Sun O))) would use for a bass.

 

[Meddle]

Is tube a requisite?

I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but I say no.

I think that whole deal comes about because when Electric Wizard and co came about tube gear was cheap. Remember Jus was using until recently a beaten Epiphone SG through a rig of all sorts of rancid 4x12s. I think the stoner thing is becoming far too gimicky and nerdy. I mean, you get those Electric company "Green" amps. As in "dude... Green" in that annoying way stoners seem to think their humour is too subtle for the average joe to notice. You might as well make a tube amp called "Roach amps 4:20" or something and some dude with a beard and a Travis Bean he forked out $2k on ebay for will happily snap it up then brag about all the tube sounds. To say stoner music is becoming too contrived and image driven is an understatement. Electric Wizard started out as some sort of misanthropic doom band who intentionally tried to annoy as many people as possible in the same way Iron Monkey did. I doubt these bands used to hang around bragging about the LP copy of Master of Reality they picked up in a flea market or which tubes they just installed in their amps or whatever.



I get a really nice grindy doom sound with an Ashdown bass overdrive pedal set to quite a fizzy Live at Leeds sort of sound. I then run that into a bass Big Muff with he clean blend setting on, the tone knocked back a bit and the gain up full. This way you get all the fizz of the muff with the low end and grind of the Ashdown coming through.

I run this all into an EQ pedal with the highest frequencies notched down and the high mids boosted a bit to still get the attack and string noise coming through, then I also add a lot of lows as well. Its not a traditional smiley scoop but rather two distinct peaks whilst not subtracting too much anywhere else.


As for tubes, I constantly argue about this with my bass buddy. He uses an Ampeg tube combo of some sort and a tube preamp when recording from the Ampeg to try and get as much tubeage in line, but I don't see what it adds. To me tubes null a bit of the attack and make everything squishy, which to me is dangerous country to be in for a Doom/Drone sound. You want all the frequencies to count and not just have a massive black area in your sound that is definitely moving air but not adding anything to the sound and obscuring everything. I think the bark and attack of solid state stuff, when properly coralled with EQ is a compromise but the best possible outcome.

 

[Legattabass]

I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but I say no.

I think that whole deal comes about because when Electric Wizard and co came about tube gear was cheap. Remember Jus was using until recently a beaten Epiphone SG through a rig of all sorts of rancid 4x12s. I think the stoner thing is becoming far too gimicky and nerdy. I mean, you get those Electric company "Green" amps. As in "dude... Green" in that annoying way stoners seem to think their humour is too subtle for the average joe to notice. You might as well make a tube amp called "Roach amps 4:20" or something and some dude with a beard and a Travis Bean he forked out $2k on ebay for will happily snap it up then brag about all the tube sounds. To say stoner music is becoming too contrived and image driven is an understatement. Electric Wizard started out as some sort of misanthropic doom band who intentionally tried to annoy as many people as possible in the same way Iron Monkey did. I doubt these bands used to hang around bragging about the LP copy of Master of Reality they picked up in a flea market or which tubes they just installed in their amps or whatever.



I get a really nice grindy doom sound with an Ashdown bass overdrive pedal set to quite a fizzy Live at Leeds sort of sound. I then run that into a bass Big Muff with he clean blend setting on, the tone knocked back a bit and the gain up full. This way you get all the fizz of the muff with the low end and grind of the Ashdown coming through.

I run this all into an EQ pedal with the highest frequencies notched down and the high mids boosted a bit to still get the attack and string noise coming through, then I also add a lot of lows as well. Its not a traditional smiley scoop but rather two distinct peaks whilst not subtracting too much anywhere else.


As for tubes, I constantly argue about this with my bass buddy. He uses an Ampeg tube combo of some sort and a tube preamp when recording from the Ampeg to try and get as much tubeage in line, but I don't see what it adds. To me tubes null a bit of the attack and make everything squishy, which to me is dangerous country to be in for a Doom/Drone sound. You want all the frequencies to count and not just have a massive black area in your sound that is definitely moving air but not adding anything to the sound and obscuring everything. I think the bark and attack of solid state stuff, when properly coralled with EQ is a compromise but the best possible outcome.

This is good advice. And I really appreciate the Electric Wizard/Scene context; seeing as how they grew like mold under some log on your island. I'm in the states and new to the genre, so I have a hard time picking out contrived playstyles and genre bandwagoning. Then again, with Dixie Dave running around with Weedeater, it's not always so hard... (good call on the "green" amps and not so subtle humor. I should launch a guitar brand called "D.A.N.K.")

I get your high attack, "barking" suggestion, and indeed this is the sound I find on my Hartke with the solid state knob turned up, and the tube turned down (it's a 'hybrid', and has a single tube, apparently).

My concern with that setup, however, is twofold:

The first: using a P-bass, I find that I start to sound "honky" as well as "barking". Does that make sense? With the tone knob all the way down, I create almost a ... flatulent, thick noise. With tone opened up, it's got plenty of attack and intensity, but, it leads to problem #2:

My guitarist is running through a solid state rig, with the EQ focusing on low mids, and gain all the way up. The lackluster playstyle of Jus Osborne, with the manic 'intensity' of Matt Pike

Hence my wanting to inhabit lower frequencies, without being too muddy. The higher I go, the "honkier" and more drowned-out I become. I'm hoping "the mole" and the EHX Green Muff (with bass boost) will help mitigate these problems. Opinions?

 

[Meddle]

The Mole for me would be a good pedal for making a nice dubby Reggae bass tone .

I suggest your guitarist should back off on the gain. The classic stonery guitar tone is not the result of gunning the gain on everything. I guess the problem with this genre is that the guitars start to turn into basses, the basses start to turn into guitars.

If you want to go properly oldchool get some flatwound strings.

Check out this video I made with flatwounds upon finding that I could get the Geezer Butler sound. This might not be the sound you are after either, so I don't know.

Listening to the earliest Electric Wizard stuff there is some tracks where he bassist is using a fuzz and a wah to get some strange ambient effects on the go.

 

[Legattabass]

The Mole for me would be a good pedal for making a nice dubby Reggae bass tone .

I suggest your guitarist should back off on the gain. The classic stonery guitar tone is not the result of gunning the gain on everything. I guess the problem with this genre is that the guitars start to turn into basses, the basses start to turn into guitars.

If you want to go properly oldchoolget some flatwound strings.

Check out this video I made with flatwounds upon finding that I could get the Geezer Butler sound. This might not be the sound you are after either, so I don't know.

Listening to the earliest Electric Wizard stuff there is some tracks where he bassist is using a fuzz and a wah to get some strange ambient effects on the go.

I'd like my guitarist to back off in a dozen ways . But I will try to edge down the gain. And your comment seems spot on. Thats why I love all the SUNN O)))))) comments in the thread. Because they've completely done away with the bass-guitar divide and made a complete, nasty, muddy mess in-between. Blech.

I will check out your video after work. Thanks for uploading it in the first place.

Also, re-flatwounds. I don't want to sound too ... "bouncy" as Iron Maiden did. What are the pro's in your mind of flats?

 

[Chrisk-K]

Run any bass through a Boss Metal Zone

 

[Meddle]

Electric Wizard used some old Boss fuzz pedal I think. Just for the banter, I formed a drone metal side project with my mate and we are just using guitars strung CGCGCC with the top two strings doubled. With all those fifths and distortion you get almost a synthesised bass. Organ builders used to cheat at building organs with bigger pipes where the bigger pipes were replicated by doubling up smaller pipes in fifths if space or money did not permit the biggest pipes to be constructed.

I guess this is a longwinded way of saying that what you play also influences the sound, such as playing a lot of fifths. It seems a common trick for stoner bands is just to play a riff of random notes cherry picked from the blues scale with the bass and guitarist playing in unison. This seems to have a lot of power behind it, and even Electric Wizard seems to have used this trick. You and your guitarist need to combine forces and play in unison.

Anyway check out my Geezer Butler style video I editted into my last post and see if thats the sound you like.

 

[Legattabass]

Electric Wizard used some old Boss fuzz pedal I think. Just for the banter, I formed a drone metal side project with my mate and we are just using guitars strung CGCGCC with the top two strings doubled. With all those fifths and distortion you get almost a synthesised bass. Organ builders used to cheat at building organs with bigger pipes where the bigger pipes were replicated by doubling up smaller pipes in fifths if space or money did not permit the biggest pipes to be constructed.

I guess this is a longwinded way of saying that what you play also influences the sound, such as playing a lot of fifths. It seems a common trick for stoner bands is just to play a riff of random notes cherry picked from the blues scale with the bass and guitarist playing in unison. This seems to have a lot of power behind it, and even Electric Wizard seems to have used this trick. You and your guitarist need to combine forces and play in unison.

Anyway check out my Geezer Butler style video I editted into my last post and see if thats the sound you like.

Funny story, I'd watched your video just a few weeks ago while browsing Youtube. I liked it then and now.

I appreciate the background on the organ as well. And you're right; most bands in the genre are just playing slow blues riffs in unison, with tremendous distortion and screaming. I would agree that this "doubling up" (like the organ pipes) is what creates the powerful, heavy sound that most "green" couch-anchors feel in their gut at the apex of their bowl, while listening. The beginning of funeralopolis, specifically, comes to mind. Before the screaming.

 

[Madwatch]

How about Spector? I don't know much about them, except that they look similar to warwicks, and I've seen them both cheap and expensive on store walls.

Just saying lots of guys have used them in metal over the years. Pantera and judas priest to name a few...

 

[Hamerguy]

Well, I don't care for any new metal music, but since you were looking for a bass with massive low end and as much treble as can be, I think the Gibson RD Artist (with the original Moog electronics) might be worth checking out. The bass is long discontinued (but with good resale value in case you'd get it and and don't like it). The electronics might be dated, yet it is capable to boost the treble and bass to almost ridiculous amount. The whole bass is made from maple, which gives it a good attack, great for playing with pick. It has 34.5" scale, so downtuning might be okay on this one. Might look cool too. The built-in compressor/limiter might be useful for you too. Ebay might be the place finding one of these. They go for $1000-2000 (this is a guess).

 

[Kromwarp]

Fender P-Bass with a gigantic Orange and Electric Rig, namely a boatload of 4x15 and 2x18 speakers

 

[Legattabass]

Fender P-Bass with a gigantic Orange and Electric Rig, namely a boatload of 4x15 and 2x18 speakers

Everything you said except for the amp part is convenient for me.

 

[Wasted Bassist]

I'm working on a new doom project and I've found that my Thunderbird (Epi) works a lot better (when haevily distorted) than either of my Spectors.

 

[Legattabass]

I'm working on a new doom project and I've found that my Thunderbird (Epi) works a lot better (when haevily distorted) than either of my Spectors.

Can you tell me the model number of your T Bird (the year too, if possible, if not, no worries)? It's been recommended to me quite a bit, in this thread as well. I should start doing some research.

 

[metron]

G&L L1000 - bass boost switch

 

[Meddle]

Well, I don't care for any new metal music, but since you were looking for a bass with massive low end and as much treble as can be, I think the Gibson RD Artist (with the original Moog electronics) might be worth checking out.

The bassist G. Stuart Dahlquist of Asva and formerly of Burning Witch uses an RD by the looks of it still. Both bands should be on any stoner/doom playlist.

 

[EdHunter]

An Epiphone Thunderbird with flats. Thunder and nothing else, without any other mods. I'm pretty certain that my stock '07, played through a stock Marshall MB450h with a 410 cab, front 'pup on 7/11, back on 11/11 and tone on 8/10 is just what you're after, sonically. Sounds like the end of the world...

 

[Legattabass]

So many votes for thunderbirds here, but I need details;

Any specific year?
Stock pups?
I hear the bridge is nasty. Is this an issue for downtuning?
Goth vs Regular? Either vs Pro?

 

[beebassdude]

i use old gibson basses through a bluebeard into 2 massive tube amps (SVT-VR, and a 2000S).

people will argue that solid state works for this, but in my experience solid state just doesnt sound the same, doesnt get loud enough, and you get 0 natural breakup from solid state heads. clipping on SS heads is maybe the worst sound imaginable, yet "clipping" on a tube amp sounds so nice and grindy.

ive played through an SVT 4pro, SVT 3pro, an old sunn concert 300, and they just do not sound anywhere near as good as a tube head.

 

[GHI]

I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but I say no.

I think that whole deal comes about because when Electric Wizard and co came about tube gear was cheap. Remember Jus was using until recently a beaten Epiphone SG through a rig of all sorts of rancid 4x12s. I think the stoner thing is becoming far too gimicky and nerdy. I mean, you get those Electric company "Green" amps. As in "dude... Green" in that annoying way stoners seem to think their humour is too subtle for the average joe to notice. You might as well make a tube amp called "Roach amps 4:20" or something and some dude with a beard and a Travis Bean he forked out $2k on ebay for will happily snap it up then brag about all the tube sounds. To say stoner music is becoming too contrived and image driven is an understatement. Electric Wizard started out as some sort of misanthropic doom band who intentionally tried to annoy as many people as possible in the same way Iron Monkey did. I doubt these bands used to hang around bragging about the LP copy of Master of Reality they picked up in a flea market or which tubes they just installed in their amps or whatever.



I get a really nice grindy doom sound with an Ashdown bass overdrive pedal set to quite a fizzy Live at Leeds sort of sound. I then run that into a bass Big Muff with he clean blend setting on, the tone knocked back a bit and the gain up full. This way you get all the fizz of the muff with the low end and grind of the Ashdown coming through.

I run this all into an EQ pedal with the highest frequencies notched down and the high mids boosted a bit to still get the attack and string noise coming through, then I also add a lot of lows as well. Its not a traditional smiley scoop but rather two distinct peaks whilst not subtracting too much anywhere else.


As for tubes, I constantly argue about this with my bass buddy. He uses an Ampeg tube combo of some sort and a tube preamp when recording from the Ampeg to try and get as much tubeage in line, but I don't see what it adds. To me tubes null a bit of the attack and make everything squishy, which to me is dangerous country to be in for a Doom/Drone sound. You want all the frequencies to count and not just have a massive black area in your sound that is definitely moving air but not adding anything to the sound and obscuring everything. I think the bark and attack of solid state stuff, when properly coralled with EQ is a compromise but the best possible outcome.

I feel like I have to clarify that the range of 'Green' Amps was originally designed by Dave Green at Matamp, RadioCraft Huddersfield, in the UK. The company that also made the 'Orange' Amps back when the Orange Amps company was just a music store, and they also exported their amps overseas to the Electric Amps company, formely known as Matamp USA.

And about stoners playing them, I don't think there is supposed to be anything subtle about it

As far as your comments on tube amps go, "nulling the attack" and "creating a massive black area in your sound"; with my own personal experience with tubeamps I can not relate to this at all. I have yet to play a SS head more then 450 watts, but all I can say is now with a 200 watt tube head I have never had a stronger attack, a more clear and responsive frequency range, and greater penetration of sound.
And volume for that matter. It may well have more to do with the power, and the quality of the gear used, and not with what type of power section the gear had.

And I think this is key. To hold up with basscrazy guitards I believe it is all about the mix and the volumes you produce and how much power available while doing so, and not so much to do with what kind of power you use.

And regarding the Bass.. The RD artist is a good suggestion I think. I would love to have a go with one.

I play a Rickenbacker 4003, but I'm sure I would also use a P or J style bass if I had one. Preferebly with a maple board !

Some swear by Musicmans, or Stingray style bassses.
I have a Ibanez ATK that has alot of bite and grind, but I found mine lacking abit in natural low end, and I allways ended up boosting the lows on the active onboard preamp with unpleasing results. But I cannot wait to try it out with my new rig that has TONS of low end..

And if you can find one, the Kramer XL9 has been suggested in previous threads similar to this one. Its the aluminum neck bass with active electronics that Tim Bagshaw played while with Electric Wizard.

Oh, and +1 to G&L !

Personally I would have started out with a good and efficient (and big) cab to begin with, if money was sparse, and then go on from there. Then Find a amp you like, and then a bass guitar. And then more cabs and more power!