Double Bass Another fingerboard scoop thread - looking for more growly, expressive pizz

[Martin Beer]

I had a new fingerboard put on my old flatback bass (German/Saxony) back in 2008. The luthier was a jazz bassist himself and we had a little chat about how I was playing at the time, and he adjusted it to suit that.
But I was playing in a lot of unamped settings back then with some loud acoustic instruments, and I think I had a little too much fixation on "digging in". I'm playing with a little lighter touch now, and while the bass still sounds good, I'd like the growl to come on a little earlier in the dynamic range, more of a 60s-70s modern jazz steel string sound. It's just a little "clean" sounding across a lot of the range as it is, and I gather getting the fingerboard scoop right is a big part of getting that dialled in to taste.
What I have at the moment (if I lay a 1 meter straightedge parallel to each string and use gauged guitar picks as ersatz feeler gauges) the maximum relief is about 2.4mm under the E string and maybe 1.3mm under the G. The deepest point is relatively low, around the C on the E string, and it's shaped so that the low point continues a little way towards the nut and then comes up relatively steeply from, say G down to E on the E string. I recall that the luthier watched me play, noted that I was digging in a lot at the time and took the scoop a little lower down the board, and I suspect that's not what I need today.
The fingerboard/neck join seems decently straight, and the board is around 10mm thick at the edges. Strings are currently Prestoflex Light, though I used Spiro S42 Mittel for a long time too.
This is really just to inform my conversation if I have to go to a luthier who might not be focused on jazz pizz requirements - what's a reasonable goal in terms of the amount of scoop to aim for?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I can’t answer the camber/scoop part of the question, but I would experiment with strings and technique before flattening the board. What part of the LH fingers do you play on? I’ve found that a lot of the growl sound comes from playing deep into the pads.

 

[Don Hergert]

It sounds like you know the complexities involved with fingerboard dressing. You may also be aware that the general rule of thumb for relief to avoid buzzing is the thickness of each string at the octave harmonic, but string tension and other more subtle string qualities may influence that.

To me, growl is not buzz; growl is more a tone quality of the strings. Buzzing happens when there is not enough relief, and even with reasonable action, playing above 1st position is difficult if there is too much relief. If you're not getting buzzing and if your fingering above first position is comfortable, your fingerboard is most likely correctly dressed for the thickness, tension and stiffness of your current strings.

If it were me, I'd reconnect with the luthier and ask what strings might provide easier growl without having to re-dress the fingerboard. Although, 17 years is a long time for a double bass setup, and the luthier might have other good recommendations too.

 

[Martin Beer]

I wish I could reconnect with the luthier who set this bass up for me initially, but he retired for health reasons more than a decade ago. And so far I haven't found someone else I could take it to in Scotland who I could discuss pizz setup and string choice with. The guys attached to general string shops tend to default to old-school British section players' setup unless you can describe in detail what you want.
I do vary how I use my left hand to try and bring a little more growl out, it's just I have the impression that in the lower positions below the heel, it's a little harder to get it out of this bass than some others. And the word growl is subjective, I mean the singing, slight swell quality that the string leaving the board at a lower angle tends to emphasise, not necessarily the aggressive, verging on rattle kind.
By the numbers alone, the depth of the scoop on this bass seems reasonable, but I'm wondering if the way the deeper area extends so far down might not be helping. I also have a very slight bump just above the octave under the G string from the wood moving over time, so that will need addressing anyway.
In terms of strings, I've had Spiro 3/4 and 4/4 Mittels, 3/4 Weich, a brief flirtation with Innovation Honey and currently I have Prestoflex Light which are said to be based on the old Lycons. I really liked Dominants on a previous bass, but I had breakage issues and I've been a little afraid of them since.

 

[Wasnex]

AFAIK, less scoop and lower action bring out growl, but keep in mind it's not free. Is there room to lower the strings? Are you willing to accept collateral effects.

String type and age is also a factor. Spiros last a long time, but they become less growly as they age. I used Spiros for many years, and I did not find them all that growly with most of the instruments and setups I used. I have played basses where they were super growly though. My assumption is the bass is big factor. Long ago I played a 7/8 Grunert that was super growly even though the action wasn't that low. I loved the way that bass sounded, unfortunately the mensure was too long for me.

AFAIK fresh Pirastro Obligatos are growly, but they have a much shorter usable life span that Spiros. It's been while, but my recollection is Obligatos were more of a pure growl and Spiros tended a bit towards grindy. Similar qualities...I think of growl as lower frequency and grind as higher frequency.

 

[evanrunyon]

I’d give some Evah Pirazzi Weichs a try.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Flattten the board towards the nut to make the scoop very consistent with the maximum scoop at the octave. Height at the nut should be no more than half a business card.

 

[evanrunyon]

I should say, back when I mostly played jazz and before I became so very fond of gut strings for non-orchestral work (this would be roughly 2012-2015ish) my setup was a Spiro Solo F# (tuned down), Evah Weich A & D, and a Passione G, and things were extremely growly.

I have changed nothing about my bass since other than my strings and bridge height and now I get functionally zero growl—I’d reckon a fingerboard dressing/planing isn’t necessary unless what you have now is already truly extreme.

Okay, I had Kieran O’Hara make me a new heavy tailpiece last year but that didn’t affect the growl one way or the other.

 

[Martin Beer]

Flattten the board towards the nut to make the scoop very consistent with the maximum scoop at the octave. Height at the nut should be no more than half a business card.

Thanks, I was looking at it against the straightedge and trying to visualise what would need to change to move the maximum scoop point upwards. It looks like the upwards (bridge) side is a very shallow, even curve, so continuing that curve downwards towards the nut (where it's a steeper curve at present) might be the way.
My car's going in to the mechanic tomorrow, I'm going to wait and see how the bill looks and then phone around some luthiers if that hasn't wiped out my finances...

 

[Martin Beer]

Got it booked in with a luthier next week, I'll update back with the results. And a checkup of soundpost etc is probably wise after 17 years anyway.

 

[Martin Beer]

I've got it back from the luthier, he agreed the relief was excessive at the lower end, he's shot the fingerboard, reshaped the bridge to suit and adjusted the soundpost position a little. It's definitely a fair bit improved, and because the lower positions are now putting up less of a fight, it's actually comfortable with the bridge slightly higher. I'm getting more body on the G string towards the octave too.
It's interesting though, chatting with him confirmed some things I'd thought about this bass - the top is relatively light and not the stiffest, it's quite a dark bass and prone to wolfiness, and the soundpost needs to be closer to the bridge than most basses. Which is probably why I tend to be looking for the liveliest strings I can find, too. The Prestoflex are pretty good, but with the new board dress I might have to try the Spiro Mitts again. If there was something even a step brighter than Spiros I'd seriously consider checking it out, but I know nobody else wants that! It's playing well for now, though.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Flat Chromesteel are brighter than Spiros, but rather high tension on the top going to less tension towards the bottom strings. I prefer a raising tension towards the lower strings.
The Helicore hybrid (light?) that I once tried were also a bit brighter than Spiros.

 

[massimo]

Helicore pizzicato are very bright, more than spiro in my opinion

 

[Martin Beer]

I'm still getting used to how the bass responds with the setup changes - after 17 years with the previous setup it's taking some readjustment of my touch. But I had a little improv gig on Saturday and I'm quite enjoying what it does with the current Prestoflex set on, so I'll leave it there for a while and see what I can get out of it. The amplified sound was certainly plenty articulate.