Another Red Flag On The Ampeg PF-500.....

[Pimmsley]

For what it's worth, these PF threads were a life saver for me as I was looking to buy an amp earlier this year and while I was at my local music shop I saw a PF350, I even asked the assistant about a deal, when I got home I googled the model, sure enough I saw the failure threads... I was lucky because it would have been an early revision, and at the time if the price was right I might have grabbed it before the googling... Needless to say I went with a different brand that got nothing but high praise here on talkbass, and I'm really glad I did. I agree this number of failures is unacceptable.

Edit: meant to add that at the time i saw the pf350 in store it was a positive brand association with Ampeg (I also owned and played through a 90's Ampeg 410 for 18 yrs) but after reading the issues and LOUD's responses, my confidence in new Ampeg gear is somewhat diminished.

 

[bobcruz]

Ampeg does...for about $310.

That is just shameful. Those boards should be available at Ampeg's cost, just to start to try to make this situation right. It's clear Ampeg isn't going to do that, which is why I suggested using social media to try to shame them into action. A class-action lawsuit is the alternative.

Watch those "United Breaks Guitars" videos I linked to above--that guy got action.

 

[srxplayer]

Give amp techs a friggen break? People these days don't want to pay any labor charge (note the number of what's wrong with my amp threads). If people don't want to pay you as it is, why would you spend 3 to 5 times in the repair labor? To feel good? That doesn't pay any bills.

I agree

Sadly, It's like this with everything these days. The parts are most likely the cheaper part of the fix. The labor is what drives the cost up on a repair. so I don't blame the amp techs at all for going that route on repairs. I'm sure the amp techs don't make that much on parts mark up anyway.

 

[seamonkey]

There are Zero reasons that you can't 'up-rev' a PF-500. Find someone to sell you a rev J board and put it in yourself. Takes a screwdriver and about 10 minutes.

Pull out the Ampeg board and fit in a IcePower, Hypex, or another reliable amp module.

The tone is all in the pre-amp.

 

[bass151]

So to this point the PF800 has not had any of the same issues as the PF500? Anyone had any issues? Would like to spend less on a 5oo, but if the 800 has been reliable I would spend the extra dollars.

 

[Remus_Redbone]

if there was a $20 diff from a restock to new it is a 'no brainer' get the NEW one! Full warrantee and it should be the current rev, 'refurbs' usually have a real short (90 day) warrantee and unless the diff is more like 30% it isn't worth it IMHO.

To answer your wife's quote, that would be true if they did nothing but the mod list posted by p-town above ends a few short of the important ones (snubbers and buffers added by Feb. 2012 aka rev. D and rev. E respectively). There is a discussion of the rev levels on the mega-thread.

Hodgy, I did mean doing the component mods to the rev. C board would be a bad idea, but a swap out is easy.

What would be an interesting statistic on the PF500 would be to see the production numbers on the various rev levels. It sounds like the rev. C was produced in great numbers in anticipation of it being a hot seller (they were right) and the later revs had lower production runs (but I could be wrong).

if the $310 price is correct and a new one is on the south side of $400 it sounds like the old one just became a pre-amp or door stop. I really like my PF500 and still think that getting a new one is safe, with one caveat, be wary of getting one from a smaller local retailer because they don't turn stock well enough and it could be a rev. C that they have on the floor (as others have found).

(I didn't get the PF800 because it wasn't worth the price difference to me, the 500 is about $1.25/watt and the 800 is about $1.33/watt, and I don't see me pushing it that hard.)

If you read the post, you see that the restock from GC comes with the manufacturers' full two year warranty for $20 less than the new unit. The restock unit would be repaired by replacing the failed component with current production parts (read; newest available), unless you believe Ampeg has a stash of early production defective components they are using to repair failed units. I seriously doubt any corp. would make that decision. That would be what those in manufacturing call a fatal mistake.

On the other hand, I could choose the new unit and hope it wasn't one that was manufactured in 2011 and has just come out of the warehouse. The problem with "no brainer" decision you mentioned is just one word; "should" as in, "it should be the current rev". If you can tell me how to insure it IS the current rev, I'd probably order one today. I see reviews where buyers have been through two failed units in a row as recent as July 2013. Were those the latest rev? If so, sounds like the problem isn't cured. If they were older stock units, we're back to choosing between a new unit or restock.

As my wife indicated; if I purchase now and have problems, it's not from ignorance of the available information.

 

[jeffmaxwell]

PF-500 boards are available from Loud--when they have them in stock-- I have had some on order for about sixty days while they wait for a shipment from their supplier--all PF-500 failures that I have seen have been the main power supply/amplifier board. If you can repair that asembly with only parts from "mouser" or "digi-key" let me know and I will send you a few to repair

I repair this stuff for a living and find the opinions expressed here very interesting. Sure, Loud has had some issues with switch mode power supplies and class D amplifiers but show me a manufacturer that has not had the same kind of problems with this stuff.

Most manufacturers buy these boards at such a low price that it is more cost effective to replace the board than to pay me for the time to troubleshoot and repair it. I get a small payment for changing the board. Most have a "do not repair list" of model numbers that they exchange for the customer either directly or through me as a servicer or through the dealer.

The Ampeg PF-350 is an exchange unit from Loud. The PF-500 is not on that list but they have been exchanging it lately probably due to a lack of replacement boards.

Long waits for parts made overseas is more the norm these days-- not just for Loud products but for all of them.

Just my two cents worth

 

[Bowe]

If you read the post, you see that the restock from GC comes with the manufacturers' full two year warranty for $20 less than the new unit. The restock unit would be repaired by replacing the failed component with current production parts (read; newest available), unless you believe Ampeg has a stash of early production defective components they are using to repair failed units. I seriously doubt any corp. would make that decision. That would be what those in manufacturing call a fatal mistake.

On the other hand, I could choose the new unit and hope it wasn't one that was manufactured in 2011 and has just come out of the warehouse. The problem with "no brainer" decision you mentioned is just one word; "should" as in, "it should be the current rev". If you can tell me how to insure it IS the current rev, I'd probably order one today. I see reviews where buyers have been through two failed units in a row as recent as July 2013. Were those the latest rev? If so, sounds like the problem isn't cured. If they were older stock units, we're back to choosing between a new unit or restock.

As my wife indicated; if I purchase now and have problems, it's not from ignorance of the available information.

Actually most restocks aren't actually damaged, they were returned in the allowable period and simply tested before resale. In fact many retailers claim equipment was factory refurbished when they were only retested by the factory or at a service centre. I cannot say what the LOUD policy is for a factory refurb. but based on the apparent policy of replacement of complete units there would be no true factory refurbs with 'replaced components'.

Regarding the two failed units, IIRC they were purchased at a local shop (GC for one) and I've stated that if you want a new rev buy from a high volume seller. I bought mine from Amazon, paid $30 more than another shop because I could tell that they had a stock of newer units. It turns out that mine was shipped from LOUD on 04Jun2013 and the main board is a rev. G and I got it 16Jun.

If you want to be sure that it is a later rev it is easy, 1) buy from a reputable authorised high volume retailer, 2) make sure the retailer has a money back guarantee, 3) with care open the cover and take a look. I say should because there are no guarantees in life and any engineer worth the title is always working on improvements and dealing with materials changes, so should is the correct word.

If it is a local shop you could have the tech at the shop open it and show it to you or just ask the shop when it was shipped from LOUD their accounting system will have that info as will the shipping box and if it was before 2013 "just say NO".

By the way why buy someone else's reject or one that was 'fixed' and not a truly new product if the price diff is less than 10%?

One final note: The available information is not statistically reliable in any way shape or form, that is why I bought one but you do not have to.

 

[JimmyM]

Restock and refurb are two different things. I'm sure they know the difference

 

[P-oddz]

So to this point the PF800 has not had any of the same issues as the PF500? Anyone had any issues? Would like to spend less on a 5oo, but if the 800 has been reliable I would spend the extra dollars.

My brand new PF800 just cut out on me last night when I was on stage. It was my second time using it. We were headlining and the middle band from out of town was using my gear. I made sure he wasn't peaking the amp, and their set was fine. I get on stage and it starts cutting out second song. I turn down gain and volume, stop using my pedals and even take the drummers fan and point it at the back of the amp. Four songs in, it's cutting out for extended periods and then the fault light flashes on.

I have to pull my amp and use the first band's head which was a piece of crap on its way out too. My signal is intermittent and we have to cut the set early. Disaster in the worst way, and completely unacceptable for a brand new product to fail in under 5 hours of usage. Taking it back and looking elsewhere.

 

[JimmyM]

Sorry to hear that. Knew it had to happen sooner or later...law of averages. Still, it's been out close to 6 months, and this being the first problem I've heard of on here, that ain't bad at all. But certainly vote with your dollars and do what you think you need to do, and I'd never tell you otherwise.

 

[Remus_Redbone]

By the way why buy someone else's reject or one that was 'fixed' and not a truly new product if the price diff is less than 10%?

I normally wouldn't, but in this case, the reason was to attempt to get a unit that might be reliable

One final note: The available information is not statistically reliable in any way shape or form, that is why I bought one but you do not have to.

Excellent advice. As I read through this post and the many others on TB regarding the PF500, as well as several reviews scattered around the internet, it dawns on me how ridiculous it is for the customer to do all work to avoid the defective version / attempt to find the reliable version put out by the manufacturer.
You have all helped me come to a conclusion. Thanks.

 

[IPYF]

My brand new PF800 just cut out on me last night when I was on stage. It was my second time using it. We were headlining and the middle band from out of town was using my gear. I made sure he wasn't peaking the amp, and their set was fine. I get on stage and it starts cutting out second song. I turn down gain and volume, stop using my pedals and even take the drummers fan and point it at the back of the amp. Four songs in, it's cutting out for extended periods and then the fault light flashes on.

This sucks. But one failure does not a design flaw make. I think this is the first 800 fault we've seen?

But conversely, I wouldn't really want to use a new amp at a gig straight out of the box. You're most likely to find out you've got a dog within the first few hours of use, and that can and does happen with every brand. That said, what actually went down is very reminiscent of the consistent issues that users of the 500 have been seeing. This could just be the first. Only continued travel along the 4th dimension will tell I guess.

 

[P Town]

PF-500 boards are available from Loud--when they have them in stock-- I have had some on order for about sixty days while they wait for a shipment from their supplier--all PF-500 failures that I have seen have been the main power supply/amplifier board. If you can repair that asembly with only parts from "mouser" or "digi-key" let me know and I will send you a few to repair

I repair this stuff for a living and find the opinions expressed here very interesting. Sure, Loud has had some issues with switch mode power supplies and class D amplifiers but show me a manufacturer that has not had the same kind of problems with this stuff.

Most manufacturers buy these boards at such a low price that it is more cost effective to replace the board than to pay me for the time to troubleshoot and repair it. I get a small payment for changing the board. Most have a "do not repair list" of model numbers that they exchange for the customer either directly or through me as a servicer or through the dealer.

The Ampeg PF-350 is an exchange unit from Loud. The PF-500 is not on that list but they have been exchanging it lately probably due to a lack of replacement boards.

Long waits for parts made overseas is more the norm these days-- not just for Loud products but for all of them.

Just my two cents worth

Very good information. Thanks!

Have you attempted to perform component level troubleshooting on the PF500 board? Have you inspected the quality of the solder joints? I just put my PF-500 in long term storage, and so I can't look at mine. I'm not looking at my schematic, (it's on my desktop computer, also in storage), but going from memory, I recall that the output section was largely comprised of an audio amp module, and two MOSFETS, (both from International Rectifier). I don't suspect a problem with the actual output devices on an intermittent cutout problem.

I wonder if there could be some feature in the design of the protection circuit that works on paper, but when real component tolerances come into play, they might stack up to cause unintended operation of the protection circuit.

It would be nice to have one of these opened up on a bench with some test equipment, and some way to get it to cut out, but I am not in a position to do any of that.

Maybe someone from Loud already has, and can help us loyal customers out!!!

(I, for example own five Ampeg amps, and various cabinets, and do occasionally get GAS). Would I let this keep me from buying a new Ampeg vacuum tube amp? No. But, would I buy a PF-800? Now, I am not sure.

 

[Pimmsley]

My brand new PF800 just cut out on me last night when I was on stage. It was my second time using it. We were headlining and the middle band from out of town was using my gear. I made sure he wasn't peaking the amp, and their set was fine. I get on stage and it starts cutting out second song. I turn down gain and volume, stop using my pedals and even take the drummers fan and point it at the back of the amp. Four songs in, it's cutting out for extended periods and then the fault light flashes on.

I have to pull my amp and use the first band's head which was a piece of crap on its way out too. My signal is intermittent and we have to cut the set early. Disaster in the worst way, and completely unacceptable for a brand new product to fail in under 5 hours of usage. Taking it back and looking elsewhere.

I could not think of anything worse...

well, I had the 'barrel' jack in my custom bass fail mid set at a pretty important gig (record music industry night), while playing a cover of a classic 70's Aussie tune, and the original band 'Spectrum' were invited guests... 3 bars into their 'big hit' my bass starts cutting in and out, I almost died... EDIT: Hope that tale of gear failure makes you feel a bit better...

Let us know how you go

 

[B-string]

My brand new PF800 just cut out on me last night when I was on stage. It was my second time using it. We were headlining and the middle band from out of town was using my gear. I made sure he wasn't peaking the amp, and their set was fine. I get on stage and it starts cutting out second song. I turn down gain and volume, stop using my pedals and even take the drummers fan and point it at the back of the amp. Four songs in, it's cutting out for extended periods and then the fault light flashes on.

I have to pull my amp and use the first band's head which was a piece of crap on its way out too. My signal is intermittent and we have to cut the set early. Disaster in the worst way, and completely unacceptable for a brand new product to fail in under 5 hours of usage. Taking it back and looking elsewhere.

If you are saying your amp and someone elses amp did the same thing then I would have been looking for a different point of AC power seeing as how two different basses (and likely cables) were used.
Have you run your PF800 since to see if the amp is still in fault? It may have been an AC power problem.

 

[Jheake]

hmm, thats a bummer.. I have tried (quite thoroughly mind you) to over work mine with a 4 ohm 810. a 4 ohm 410, an 8 ohm 410 and a pair of 8 ohm 410s and havent been able to get mine to "cut out"

My PF800 has been an absolute beast. I have to admit though, it did make my heart skip a beat though reading that. and not in that good way either. I hope this is a fluke.

I actually plan on picking up another 7pro and getting a Heritage 410hlf soon as well. So at least i will have two heads to fall back on if one starts acting up.
bummer man.

 

[nashvillebill]

...It may have been an AC power problem.

I think a lot of people don't realize the impact of AC voltage issues on the newer technologies.

Folks think that as long as the circuit breaker doesn't trip, there's plenty of AC power available, right???? But they aren't aware that voltage and current are two different properties. So let's say that several amplifiers are plugged in to a receptacle and the combined current draw is 15 amps. Not enough to trip the 20 amp breaker, so they think there's no problem. However, suppose all these amplifiers are plugged into a 50 foot 18 gauge extension cord. The extension cord has resistance, so voltage is dropped down the cord. Let's see, that's 100 feet total, at 6.5 ohms per thousand feet...okay that's 0.65 0hms of resistance. The voltage drop will be 15 amps times 0.65 ohms, or 9.75 volts. So if 110 volts was available at the wall, only 100 volts will be available at the amplifier. That could cause the amplifier to momentarily shut down.

 

[Immigrant]

These PF-500 threads scare me.

I had one for a few months, and it worked flawlessly. I bought it here in the classifieds, and it was a warranty exchange for a fried one and was basically brand new.

I sold it through CL to a guy who really wanted it and has gigged with it; I spoke to him after the first gig, and all went swimmingly. I worry that it's gonna fry and I'll feel guilty. I gave him a quick tutorial on how I'd use it to get the most out of it and I think if he continues to follow that, it should be trouble free. I hope.

 

[B-string]

I think a lot of people don't realize the impact of AC voltage issues on the newer technologies.

Folks think that as long as the circuit breaker doesn't trip, there's plenty of AC power available, right???? But they aren't aware that voltage and current are two different properties. So let's say that several amplifiers are plugged in to a receptacle and the combined current draw is 15 amps. Not enough to trip the 20 amp breaker, so they think there's no problem. However, suppose all these amplifiers are plugged into a 50 foot 18 gauge extension cord. The extension cord has resistance, so voltage is dropped down the cord. Let's see, that's 100 feet total, at 6.5 ohms per thousand feet...okay that's 0.65 0hms of resistance. The voltage drop will be 15 amps times 0.65 ohms, or 9.75 volts. So if 110 volts was available at the wall, only 100 volts will be available at the amplifier. That could cause the amplifier to momentarily shut down.

Exactly. From what I made of the post the PF-800 was cutting out and went into protect (or could have been rebooting) with two different players and probably basses/cables. A second amp also failed and ended the set. The common denominator is the AC voltage supply which may have been at fault for both amps being troublesome.