Any Rules For Mixing Cabinets?

[MVE]

For the record...here is a reply to this question from Gallien Krueger:


I do appreciate all of the responses to the mix or match speaker configuration question. I decided to go to the source "GK and I will share my response. According to "GK", this is a non issue. As long as you do not exceed a 4 ohm load in my case. Please see below:

Dear GK,

My current setup consists of a GK 1001 RB 2 x 10 combo, and extension cabs Backline 4 x 10 and SBX II 1 x 15. My question relates to speaker cab combinations. With my current set up I can use a 6 x 10, 2 x 10 and 1 x 15 or 4 x 10 and 1 x 15. All of which I enjoy the sound variation this provides.

• I have been advised that it is not a good idea to mix and match speaker cab combinations
• Therefore using a 1 x 15 SBX II and a 4 x 10 Backline may not be a good choice according to some
• There are some purists who recommend only using matching cabs i.e. two 4 x 10 cabs @ 8 ohms to reach a 4 ohm load
• Is there any problem with mixing up these cabs as I have described

Can you please speak to this, and lay it to rest once and for all. I have seen different artists utilize different extension cab combinations. For larger venues I prefer the 1 x 15 and 4 x 10. I enjoy the sound I get from all of my GK cabs. Can you offer any technical advice ?

Answer from GK:

The only concern to have is the ohm load. The 1001RB is stable down to 4 ohms. This will accommodate the internal speakers plus one 8 ohm cab or 2 external 8 ohm cabinets. It sound like you are aware of this but I want to make sure you are.

Beyond the ohm load consideration, I would say use whatever combinations you like. There are many “experts” online that love to share their opinions. Many of these guys are informed but many are not. Some people will attempt to apply hi-fi concepts to musical instrument amplification that are either not applicable or have no real benefit outside of a controlled acoustical environment.

Thanks,
Jason
GK


I don’t claim to be an expert on much but I have seen guys obsess over inconsequential things and forget to actually play the gear. Meanwhile, there are a lot of guys out making a living using the rigs that the “experts” claim are inferior.

I am of the mindset that blending the response of multiple speakers can yield great results. One speaker may lack somewhere and another driver can compliment it in a positive way to “complete” the sound you are CREATING. If you want to play pre-recorded music and sit between two speakers in an acoustically neutral room it may make a difference I suppose. However, you are making the sound you want to hear with an instrument that is imperfect in a room that is almost always the worst possible environment acoustically. To make any nuance even more difficult to perceive, you are usually standing next to a guy who is banging on a plastic skin stretched across a wooden hoop and flattened pie tins 

Let me know if I can assist in the future.

Jason
GK

So, Jason from GK, pretty much states that discerning nuances of bass tone is pointless.?.?.?

What does that tell us about GK equipment and design philosophy? Lol

 

[Downunderwonder]

And again, Jadon doesn't put his neck out any further than ''if it sounds good to you it's good''.

If you are going to mix up cabs be prepared for it not to sound good out front, or even on stage.

 

[MVE]

And again, Jadon doesn't put his neck out any further than ''if it sounds good to you it's good''.

If you are going to mix up cabs be prepared for it not to sound good out front, or even on stage.

Yeah, that and he pretty much says, 'who even cares what it sounds like cause the drummer is so darn loud anyway?'

 

[ThisBass]

Yeah, that and he pretty much says, 'who even cares what it sounds like cause the drummer is so darn loud anyway?'

BTW aren't drum kits composed with lots of different diameters?
I claim it was pretty enough of different diamter to have kick-drum and snare-drum and hihatt
a kind of joking

 

[ThisBass]

And again, Jadon doesn't put his neck out any further than ''if it sounds good to you it's good''.

If you are going to mix up cabs be prepared for it not to sound good out front, or even on stage.

everybody who enters a stage with "crappy" untested bass guitar, bass amplifier, pedal board, cabinets, enters the stage on his own risk.
Again, I agree that clarity of mids is an essential factor, if clarity of mids is still there how much of additional amount of clarity is the best?

just the moment (again) I'm thinking about a "new" cabinet design, three 112, one basic "sub" and 2 x 112 cabs with a crossed mid/high band, an inverse "J" alignment composed of smallish cone drivers. Which is actually an approved arrangement with line array systems.

Of course two stacked inverse "J" arrays would predict some "phase issues" but, ....

 

[Ric5]

It indeed was a night to remember @ Chicago's Soldier Field...about 90,000 in attendance...you are correct...it was one big party...lol

The concert I saw was indoors ... at the hockey / basketball arena ... that was a bad room for a band and many bands sounded bad there, but Pink Floyd sounded great

 

[ThisBass]

The concert I saw was indoors ... at the hockey / basketball arena ... that was a bad room for a band and many bands sounded bad there, but Pink Floyd sounded great

In awkward acoustic environment the art of sound is not to overload the "room" with to much of SPL. Line arry systems did a lot of improvement in this regard.

 

[BadExample]

As a musician and electronic engineer I'm more interested in dB numbers rather than abstract looking plot samples.

Adding of two signals with same Amplitude and frequency but different (relative) phase

0 degree: +6.00 dB

10 degree: +5.97 dB
20 degree: +5.87 dB
45 degree: + 5.31 dB
55 degree: +4.96 dB
90 degree: + 2.99 dB

120 degree: + 0 dB
180 degree: total cancelation

That's a very impressing results cause it means nearly no loss within 0-20 degree phase "issue".
At 55 degree phase shift (which is quite lot of shift) the dB loss is silly -1dB versus perfect matching (wasn't there a claim of inaudible difference within smallish dB deviation?).
The 90 degree (relative) shift can be understand as -3dB point like commonly used with frequency response specifications.

Of course the "new" generated signal has got a different phase then the original ones. The new "phase" can be easily calculated by divide the "relative" shift with divisor 2.
But, if matching of cabs don't cause phase issues with different room environment THEN the relative shift has to be of no concern anyway.


Another consideration regarding phase "issues" with different drivers
different phi(z) based on voice coil R(dc) and L for f=500Hz

BASSLITE S2010: 16 °
LEGEND CB158: 10 °
DELTA-10A: 20 °
DELTA-15A: 18 °
DELTALITE II 2510: 14 °
DELTALITE II 2515: 34 °
KAPPALITE 3010HO: 18 °
KAPPALITE 3015LF: 28 °

The relative phi(z) difference at f=500Hz between Legend-CB158 and Deltalite-II-2512 looks large on paper: 24 °
while phase "issue" for 24 ° difference is rather smallish (neglible) in total dB numbers (see above).
No reason to claim noticeable phase issues that result in "cancelation" within room environment on these both rather extreme samples. Although, I wouldn't try to mix these both 15" drivers but, it was not due to "phase issues"

Of course the common represented argument for matched cabs to come "as close as possible" in all regards is justified. But, on closer examinaton, the commonly frequently adressed phase problem "issue" isn't properly the right tool to explain every sound problems with mixed gear.
There are a couple of different (probably) more recent paramters that impact the success of mixing but, as these resecent paramerts are not understood so they are not discussed at forum discussions. Instead "phase issue" is always (penetrantly) regarded as root evil all.

Great detailed explanation and point of view! Thank you.

As bassmanpaul states a few posts after yours, the risk is getting stuck with something you can't use.

 

[ThisBass]

Great detailed explanation and point of view! Thank you.

As bassmanpaul states a few posts after yours, the risk is getting stuck with something you can't use.

Thanks, yes, and absolutely true what Paul said

 

[/\/\3phist0]

MD Police state that a crossover is mandatory

 

[Munjibunga]

Everything is allowed that is not explicitely prohibited by law.
If I rember correctly, if somebody surrenders suicide attempt then there is a prosecution by department of public prosecution.
At least in my home country there isn't impunity within a "diving into a chipper" suicide attempt.

There is if you're successful.

 

[ThisBass]

There is if you're successful.

I was not, just by now,
just a little bit kidding you know

 

[Munjibunga]

For the record...here is a reply to this question from Gallien Krueger:


I do appreciate all of the responses to the mix or match speaker configuration question. I decided to go to the source "GK and I will share my response. According to "GK", this is a non issue. As long as you do not exceed a 4 ohm load in my case. Please see below:

Dear GK,

My current setup consists of a GK 1001 RB 2 x 10 combo, and extension cabs Backline 4 x 10 and SBX II 1 x 15. My question relates to speaker cab combinations. With my current set up I can use a 6 x 10, 2 x 10 and 1 x 15 or 4 x 10 and 1 x 15. All of which I enjoy the sound variation this provides.

• I have been advised that it is not a good idea to mix and match speaker cab combinations
• Therefore using a 1 x 15 SBX II and a 4 x 10 Backline may not be a good choice according to some
• There are some purists who recommend only using matching cabs i.e. two 4 x 10 cabs @ 8 ohms to reach a 4 ohm load
• Is there any problem with mixing up these cabs as I have described

Can you please speak to this, and lay it to rest once and for all. I have seen different artists utilize different extension cab combinations. For larger venues I prefer the 1 x 15 and 4 x 10. I enjoy the sound I get from all of my GK cabs. Can you offer any technical advice ?

Answer from GK:

The only concern to have is the ohm load. The 1001RB is stable down to 4 ohms. This will accommodate the internal speakers plus one 8 ohm cab or 2 external 8 ohm cabinets. It sound like you are aware of this but I want to make sure you are.

Beyond the ohm load consideration, I would say use whatever combinations you like. There are many “experts” online that love to share their opinions. Many of these guys are informed but many are not. Some people will attempt to apply hi-fi concepts to musical instrument amplification that are either not applicable or have no real benefit outside of a controlled acoustical environment.

Thanks,
Jason
GK


I don’t claim to be an expert on much but I have seen guys obsess over inconsequential things and forget to actually play the gear. Meanwhile, there are a lot of guys out making a living using the rigs that the “experts” claim are inferior.

I am of the mindset that blending the response of multiple speakers can yield great results. One speaker may lack somewhere and another driver can compliment it in a positive way to “complete” the sound you are CREATING. If you want to play pre-recorded music and sit between two speakers in an acoustically neutral room it may make a difference I suppose. However, you are making the sound you want to hear with an instrument that is imperfect in a room that is almost always the worst possible environment acoustically. To make any nuance even more difficult to perceive, you are usually standing next to a guy who is banging on a plastic skin stretched across a wooden hoop and flattened pie tins 

Let me know if I can assist in the future.

Jason
GK

Opinions are like ... oh, never mind.

 

[Son of Wobble]

Nope, no rules. Anything that is in ohms connects to anything else thus labelled, and you have our full blessing and best wishes to experiment freely.

 

[ThisBass]

So, Jason from GK, pretty much states that discerning nuances of bass tone is pointless.?.?.?

What does that tell us about GK equipment and design philosophy? Lol

If I translate "discerning" right then Jason is correct, of course it depnds cause some folks hear gras growing where is nothing but dessert.

 

[BadExample]

MD Police state that a crossover is mandatory

Punishable by a billy club beating where the offender escapes unharmed?

Just a little jab, not in argument of your point.

 

[Mike SS]

Holy Cow! I can't believe I read the whole thing. Being a newbie here I wasn't aware that this subject had been discussed, argued, debated many times here. Anyway, thanks for all the responses. I learned a thing or two.

 

[BadExample]

Holy Cow! I can't believe I read the whole thing. Being a newbie here I wasn't aware that this subject had been discussed, argued, debated many times here. Anyway, thanks for all the responses. I learned a thing or two.

Welcome Mike! That's putting it lightly! I think on the murder channel my wife's always watching there was a one hour show just on people killed in fights over this from TB alone! Not to mention, several suicides by OP's who asked an innocent question.

 

[MVE]

Holy Cow! I can't believe I read the whole thing. Being a newbie here I wasn't aware that this subject had been discussed, argued, debated many times here. Anyway, thanks for all the responses. I learned a thing or two.

MikeSS,
It's good to hear from you (op). Some of us were beginning to worry that our sarcasm and/or deadly viscous seriousness might have scared you away from TB forever. Lol. I'm glad that is not the case.
Let us know what you end up getting and if it works out for your boy. I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone here when I say that we truly hope you end up happy with your decision, no matter what you choose.

 

[DaveAceofBass]

Sorry, but your experience is wrong.

So many people on these forums, they're all experts...

When the amp "sees" two 8 ohm cabs (4 ohms total), the power is not necessarily distributed evenly 50/50 between both cabs. It depends on the speaker configuration and sensitivity of the cabs.