Any Rules For Mixing Cabinets?

[DukeLeJeune]

how do you feel about phase rotation of mids?

Ime of mixing and comparing full range vs biamping there was a noticeable loss of clarity to the mixed full range stack.

Excellent point, I hadn't thought of that. Imo that loss of clarity you mention in the mids could well be a deal-killer for mixing different cabs, and I don't know a reliable way of predicting it in advance. If the two cabs are from the same manufacturer they may be able to give you good guidance, and then again maybe not.

 

[leesbrushes]

I went old school and stuck with my wt400 because I love the tone and just supersized it with a Stewart world 2.1.
I now run two 8 ohm 410 xlt s at 400 a piece because that is the lowest I can run this without melting them....lol
I could get two more and have two 4 ohm loads but..eh...no need now.
But I could if I wanted to and that is what matters ...to me at least..
So I took a econic sounding amp and put it into super power mode...that's how I roll.
Eden calls it their best sounding amp ever.....
Now it dominates...

 

[leesbrushes]

I ran mixed cabs for years. I paired a 410 with a 115 because the GK115-blx that I bought to get back into bass playing was way too boomy by itself. So I already had that cab. I got the 410 to add to it to get the low-mids, high-mids, and highs that were almost non-existent in that 115. I figured if I couldn't EQ out the boominess, I'd just run the 410. However, the acoustic B410 doesn't have the best low end by itself. Adding the 410 and cutting the low EQ on my amp took care of the boominess pretty well. The combination of those two cabs sounded better than either one by itself. My single power-block amp put out 400-watts at 4 ohms so each of the cabs got 200-watts so they worked well and no worries about blowing anything.

Then I bought a dual power-block amp (WT500 hot-rodded up to 800 watts) with a "balance" knob. That knob is magic. I plugged the GK115-blx (200-watts power handling) into one side of the amp and the acoustic B410 (400 watts power handling) into the other side of the amp (separate power channels!). Both are 8 ohm cabs and got 240 watts each from their respective sides. Then I turned the balance knob about 3 clicks towards the 410 which sent more power to the 410 and less to the 115. Cleared that boominess right up with EQ set flat. That not only made the sound work great, it took away any concerns I had about pushing too much power to the 115. So, that's why I paired a 410 and 115 together and how I got it to work well.

Since then, I've purchased a DNA cab - DNS410 (8 ohm and 1400-watt power-handling) and I ONLY run that one cabinet. I run it with my amp bridged at 800 watts into 8 ohms and it just kills. No need to lug around an extra cab, much easier than lugging around an 810, and my amp just gets warm running it because it is such an efficient (loud and clear) cabinet. So, been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Now I'm down to a single top-quality cab and really don't need a second one.

I made my last post for you cause you also use eden gear.

 

[BadExample]

I fear the OP has committed suicide. Gone to the great gig in the sky.

 

[walterw]

In all my years of reading posts here, no one wanting to mix cabs has ever stated why. That in of itself tells me everything I want to know.

huh? they state why all the time!

usually it's "i want a 4x10 for highs and 1x15 for lows", or it's "i run these two together and it's louder than either one by itself, so that means it's awesome" or it's "my favorite rock star had a row of stacks like that lined up way behind him on that stadium tour".

those are just not good "whys" is all

 

[Ric5]

ok ... SERIOUS ANSWER ...

If you are going to mix cabs then it is best if both cabs are 8 ohms.

Don't mix a huge fridge size cab with a tiny practice cab

Some cabs will compliment each other and some will fight each other ...

 

[TTPbass1]

I've mixed about every cab, size, and make ever made. I've even added a 4x12 guitar cab with a 1x15 and had good results. I can say that a 2x10 with a 1x15 is better than a 4x10 with a 1x15. The distribution of power is more even with that setup. 4x10s are very power hungry if that makes sense.

I have mixed various options lately, and found that 2x10 + 115 works great for me. I actually use a CMD 102P combo amp with a Standard 151HR Cab. Both the combo and the ext. cab are 8ohm, so the amp can bring those 500 watts with no problem.

And it also looks amazing...

 

[BadExample]

huh? they state why all the time!

usually it's "i want a 4x10 for highs and 1x15 for lows", or it's "i run these two together and it's louder than either one by itself, so that means it's awesome" or it's "my favorite rock star had a row of stacks like that lined up way behind him on that stadium tour".

those are just not good "whys" is all

My why is I want full audio spectrum.

 

[tfer]

huh? they state why all the time!

usually it's "i want a 4x10 for highs and 1x15 for lows", or it's "i run these two together and it's louder than either one by itself, so that means it's awesome" or it's "my favorite rock star had a row of stacks like that lined up way behind him on that stadium tour".

those are just not good "whys" is all

And that's why I've never posted reasons like those.

I am an advocate of listening with your ears, and not your eyes. Someone already stated that they'd leave a club if they saw mis-matched cabs on stage - classic example of ignorance.

In over 2 years, I've explained more than a dozen times that using my 210Xl with my Hydrive 115 is complementary. Sometimes, companies do design their equipment to work together. Hartke is one of those companies.

The 210 is sealed and falls like a rock off a cliff at 60-70HZ, but it has a pleasant mid bass bump around 300HZ that adds a great punch to the sound. The 115 is ported and takes care of the bottom end - roll off is gentle at 35HZ and fairly flat after that.

I keep the tweeter off - I have no interest in anything above about 800-1000HZ.

 

[esoxhntr]

He's gonna make bass cabs great again!

Yes!

 

[TTPbass1]

And that's why I've never posted reasons like those.

I am an advocate of listening with your ears, and not your eyes. Someone already stated that they'd leave a club if they saw mis-matched cabs on stage - classic example of ignorance.

In over 2 years, I've explained more than a dozen times that using my 210Xl with my Hydrive 115 is complementary. Sometimes, companies do design their equipment to work together. Hartke is one of those companies.

The 210 is sealed and falls like a rock off a cliff at 60-70HZ, but it has a pleasant mid bass bump around 300HZ that adds a great punch to the sound. The 115 is ported and takes care of the bottom end - roll off is gentle at 35HZ and fairly flat after that.

I keep the tweeter off - I have no interest in anything above about 800-1000HZ.

Something similar happens to my Markbass rig, in this case the 2x10 is front ported and works amazing in the low-mid freqs, but can also go really low; and shines from 600-1000HZ. The 1x15 is rear ported and takes care of that roundness of the sound, making it sound full and really defined. I've muted the piezo tweeter on the 2x10 combo and use a bit of bright on the 15" cabinet compression driver.

This combination definitely was conceived to work together...

 

[Munjibunga]

I thought about giving some reasonable, constructive "guidelines".

Rule 1: Don't
Rule 2: See Rule 1

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I went old school and stuck with my wt400 because I love the tone and just supersized it with a Stewart world 2.1.
I now run two 8 ohm 410 xlt s at 400 a piece because that is the lowest I can run this without melting them....lol
I could get two more and have two 4 ohm loads but..eh...no need now.
But I could if I wanted to and that is what matters ...to me at least..
So I took a econic sounding amp and put it into super power mode...that's how I roll.
Eden calls it their best sounding amp ever.....
Now it dominates...

Yup, that WT400 is considered the best of the bunch. Anyone who's ever sold one has wished they had it back. What a sweet rig!

 

[BadExample]

how do you feel about phase rotation of mids?

Ime of mixing and comparing full range vs biamping there was a noticeable loss of clarity to the mixed full range stack.

I've been testing some drivers I have laying around. I didn't attempt to determine the whys, just listening to the difference. Makeshift cabs. I've noticed biamp generally sounds a lot better. Last nights test was a 15 in. and 4 x 10 in. Even with the 15 on its own channel and the tens on another, biamp was profoundly better with the amp set flat. Without biamp, I think the 15 sounds at least as good without the tens, maybe better. I'm not so sure I can get all those in cabs without swmbo getting out her machete, so I may have to go back to 4 x 5" mids I was testing last week.

 

[Gospel Bass Player]

I saw them in Chicago in 73 or74 for the Dark side of the moon tour ... they had a quadrophonic pa that was state of the art

Ahhh...remember the floating pig, and the white clouds of little sheep...bah,bah...lol

 

[Gospel Bass Player]

If this has ever been done, I apologize. I'm a visual person, so I figured I show some illustrations relating to phase differences between cabs and why mixing cabs can be a bad idea. If you have no idea what any of this means, just enjoy the pics. I used WinISD and LTspice.

This pic shows 3-100Hz sine wave signals. Green is perfectly in phase (consider it the reference). Blue is 60 degrees out of phase relative to green. Red is the sum of the two signals. Notice the reduction in level of the red signal. In theory, two signals that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other will completely cancel out.

View attachment 834870

This pic shows a frequency response plot of 4 different ported speaker cabinet concepts:

Yellow = a single 15 cab tuned low
Blue = a more different single 15 cab
Pink = a typical 2-12 cab
Green a typical 4-10 cab

View attachment 834877

This pic shows the phase response for the same 4 cabinet concepts:

View attachment 834878

Phase plots can be a little strange if you're not used to seeing them. I typically think of the area between 60Hz and 100Hz the "money zone" for bass guitar, so focus on that. Look at the phase differences between these cabs! You may be thinking, hey, none are perfectly in phase! Well, that's a more complicated subject. Speaker cabinets introduce phase shift as well as the speakers themselves--can't be avoided. EQ's mess with the phase as well. We're talking about mixing cabs here, so we're concerned with relative phase to each other.

Anyway, let's pick a frequency...80Hz. 80Hz is close to the second harmonic of a low E string...in other words, money.

Yellow = 58 degrees
Blue = 95 degrees
Pink = 128 degrees
Green = 139 degrees

They are all somewhat out of phase with each other, so they would all have some cancellation when used together. The worst case is Yellow and green, which in this case happens to be a 115 and 410--they are 81 degrees out of phase at 80 Hz. The best case is Pink and Green, which happens to be a 212 and 410--they are 11 degrees out of phase at 80Hz. Those would probably play okay together because the phase between them is consistently not too far off. Check out yellow and blue from 200 to 1K--they are pretty much perfectly in phase in that range. Down low, not so much.

Anyway, think about the first pic that shows a 60 degree cancellation. If you pick any two of the phase plots at a given frequency, you can probably imagine the resulting signal loss.

This is very interesting indeed...but , I'm a little loss. So, if I understand you correctly, then you are advocating it is better not to mix cabs ? Are you saying if you do mix cabs, it is better to mix a 2 x 10 with a 1 x 15, rather than a 1 x 15 and a 4 x 10 combination ? I really enjoy the sound I get from my 1 x 15, 4 x 10 combination as it seems to project more than the 2 x 10 and 1 x 15. If I need a loud and proud deep bass sound with great rumble, I choose the 4 x 10 and 1 x 15. I could be wrong technically speaking, but it works for me...imho.

 

[dincz]

ok ... SERIOUS ANSWER ...
If you are going to mix cabs then it is best if both cabs are 8 ohms.

It depends what's inside the cabs - not usually a good idea for a 2x10 and 4x10 for example.

Some cabs will compliment each other and some will fight each other ...

The cabs might complement each other and the audience might compliment you.

 

[MVE]

And that's why I've never posted reasons like those.

I am an advocate of listening with your ears, and not your eyes. Someone already stated that they'd leave a club if they saw mis-matched cabs on stage - classic example of ignorance.

In over 2 years, I've explained more than a dozen times that using my 210Xl with my Hydrive 115 is complementary. Sometimes, companies do design their equipment to work together. Hartke is one of those companies.

The 210 is sealed and falls like a rock off a cliff at 60-70HZ, but it has a pleasant mid bass bump around 300HZ that adds a great punch to the sound. The 115 is ported and takes care of the bottom end - roll off is gentle at 35HZ and fairly flat after that.

I keep the tweeter off - I have no interest in anything above about 800-1000HZ.

Tfer, I was joking. I don't really leave clubs or call the police when I see mixed drivers.

 

[Bass_Pounder]

That's incorrect in my experience. The cab that has the highest sensitivity would get most of the power. It is not necessarily balanced between the 210 and 410, as you say. Quite the contrary, I would expect the 410 to get the bulk of the power.

Sorry, but your experience is wrong.

 

[Robroy]

Tfer, I was joking. I don't really leave clubs or call the police when I see mixed drivers.

I saw your comment as a joke immediately on reading it. We have gotten so argumentative as a culture, and our sensibilities of what is "normal" are so diversive, that even ludicrous and obviously sarcastic statements like yours are taken seriously by many.

It's rampant in political satire articles - often being taken seriously.