Any tips? Drummer is throwing me off

[koricancowboy]

So, what I'm getting at here is really FINE TUNING. I was looking for a specific method to strengthen one's internal beat. Maybe I should have posted in the "technique" forum?

Like a bunch of people said before count. The reason why pros rarely miss a downbeat is they learned to count early. If the drummer is playing all sorts of syncopation your only hope is to learn to internalize the subdivisions of every beat.

As far as a metronome exercise you could try this one. first of all the obvious if you do not have a metronome that subdivides get one like last month!!! This is essential. I would look on ebay for a DB-66 if you don't have one - its super accurate, loud as hell and can subdivide all sorts of ways. If you do, good, use it to it's full potential. I like to play with mine in all sorts of ways.

First of course set the beat to click on every down beat, then the up beat with a silent downbeat, then the "e" or "a". (Using 1-e-and-a, 2-e-and-a, etc to subdivide every beat into sixteenth notes. I'm sure you knew that but in case you were wondering what the hell I was talking about with this "a" and "e" nonsense.) If you want to take it to 32nds thats cool but I don't really think you need to divide further. Triplets, quintuplets, sextuplets would be good too. You could also try quarter or half note triplets whatever you have trouble with. After you nail this in all manner of tempos which could take days, weeks or even months depending on how far along you are and how much you practice, start taking beats away.

Have it click only on 2 and 4. Then only on 1. Then only on the "a" of 4 or the "and" of 3 etc. Then you can really stretch it and start going over bars. For example set it to click on the "a" of beat three in every third bar. Or on the 2 of every 32nd bar etc.

This will also open up a world of possibilities for your own improvisations. You may think the drummer is the timekeeper but really everyone involved is responsible for time. Hope that helps.

 

[SiliconElle]

Sometimes I play with this drummer who is INSANE. He is always turning the beat inside-out, doing crazy polyrythms that will keep anyone on the edge of their seat! As awesome as that is, it can be very hard to follow during a drum solo, and I performed with this guy in a jam band. I just have to get used to playing with drummers like that.

 

[ryco]

Feel. Ya just gotsta pay attention and feel your way through it.

My situation is a little different. My jazzy drummer and I play with a piano player who is always turning the beat around.
The drummer and I can instantly flip it over so things sound right again.
There's been times where he's flipped the beat a couple times in a row, and we just flip it again with smiles and winks.
Seems to happen when notes are held over the bar lines ala "Caravan".

When drummers mess up and I'm to come back in, I give them the "wide eyes" and raise the neck of the bass, and give them the giant "one is here" guillotine chop.

 

[santucci218]

the kid who plays with me changes time sings just to make me mad. he is always messing with me...but i learned from it, so i appreciate it.

 

[lunarpollen]

The thing is, if the drummer is losing you, he's probably losing most people in the crowd too

 

[Chris Breese]

Sounds like lots of fun!

 

[Pbassred]

record it and diagnose what happened later.

 

[Les Izmor]

Like a bunch of people said before count. The reason why pros rarely miss a downbeat is they learned to count early. If the drummer is playing all sorts of syncopation your only hope is to learn to internalize the subdivisions of every beat.

As far as a metronome exercise you could try this one. first of all the obvious if you do not have a metronome that subdivides get one like last month!!! This is essential. I would look on ebay for a DB-66 if you don't have one - its super accurate, loud as hell and can subdivide all sorts of ways. If you do, good, use it to it's full potential. I like to play with mine in all sorts of ways.

First of course set the beat to click on every down beat, then the up beat with a silent downbeat, then the "e" or "a". (Using 1-e-and-a, 2-e-and-a, etc to subdivide every beat into sixteenth notes. I'm sure you knew that but in case you were wondering what the hell I was talking about with this "a" and "e" nonsense.) If you want to take it to 32nds thats cool but I don't really think you need to divide further. Triplets, quintuplets, sextuplets would be good too. You could also try quarter or half note triplets whatever you have trouble with. After you nail this in all manner of tempos which could take days, weeks or even months depending on how far along you are and how much you practice, start taking beats away.

Have it click only on 2 and 4. Then only on 1. Then only on the "a" of 4 or the "and" of 3 etc. Then you can really stretch it and start going over bars. For example set it to click on the "a" of beat three in every third bar. Or on the 2 of every 32nd bar etc.

This will also open up a world of possibilities for your own improvisations. You may think the drummer is the timekeeper but really everyone involved is responsible for time. Hope that helps.

Thanks! that is exactly what I was looking for. I don't have a subdividing metronome, but have done some excercises like that with my traditional one. I'm going to get a subdividing metronome today!

 

[srptopdog]

Thanks for all the general suggestions. I'll have to try counting next time. To clarify, I'm not a novice and have quite a bit of experience improvising, as well as playing with a band, rehearsing and getting tight, etc. This was a one off jam, not a rehearsal, so I couldn't work it out ahead of time or after the fact. We were improvising and just moved on after each tune. There was more than one "wow" moment where we all stopped together, or intuitively accented a beat. So, what I'm getting at here is really FINE TUNING. I was looking for a specific method to strengthen one's internal beat. Maybe I should have posted in the "technique" forum?

OK, I was wondering two things things. Is the dummer a good player? You've answerd that, so that leaves the bit about counting. Since I don't think you're talking about a an "extended drum solo," I believe you are right on about counting and hearing phrases.

If the dummer's taking a four-bar breakdown (which seems like what you're talking about here), then yeah, if the dummer's a good player and feeling a phrase that turns the beat arround a bit, then it certainly can be difficult sometimes to keep track of the downbeat in order to come in together on measure five, for example.

It's not the tempo that's changing of course, it's the phrasing that making the listener feel as if the downbeat has been moved. If you're a listener of jazz, then you've probably heard of the "trading fours" concept, where after most of the band has soloed over chord changes, the drummer will trade fours (four bars) with the other players in the group. If you listsen to some of the better drummers, they all seem to play with the phrasing, and as a listener/player, it is not always obvious when to come in. That said... can I actually give you advice you can use? I'll try...

1. Set up a basic drum machine patten in 4/4, then try to play a song or a riff in 3/4 against it. If you can keep you're thoughts together you will begin to be able to weave the 3/4 against the 4/4. Of course, you can try this with any other combination you feel would be beneficial.

2. Count. Sometimes just concentrating on the time signature and ignoring the drummers phrasing somewhat in order to keep your place is the way to go, particularly in a jam session.

3. Eye contact with the drummer might work, but if it's a jam it might not.

4. Maybe listen to music that uses more odd-time phrasing so it will be more familiar to you if you run up against it.

That's about all I've got. I hope something here helps.

Cheers!

 

[koricancowboy]

Thanks! that is exactly what I was looking for. I don't have a subdividing metronome, but have done some excercises like that with my traditional one. I'm going to get a subdividing metronome today!

Glad I can help. Don't get ripped off on the metronome, those boss DB-90's are cool but way over priced. Check craigslist and ebay. If you can't find a DB-66 check out the DB-60. The 60 is way more portable too if that matters to you. Plus it counts clave for learning Latin music. Good luck and have a blast with this. IT will become an object of obsession for a while but have fun with it.

 

[Ten Four One]

Get a drum machine & program it to play what you need to practice. It's not something you could easily practice with a regular metronome.

 

[roflol]

Being able to maintain your internal pulse.

+1 even if everyone else was soloing you should still know where the first beat is and hold down the groove

 

[JKT]

All good advice here and the only thing I can add would be to make sure you watch him play, especially when he is ready to bring it home. Many guys will do similiar things at the downbeat like hitting the crash etc. I have often used this to help me out when the drummer insists on playing "hide the one."

JKT

 

[mokkat]

Practice Rhcp - readymade with him

 

[kraigo]

When I'm drumming I generally don't let things go off-kilter for too long. A bar or two. If I'm playing accents on every third eighth note of straight eighths (usually on the hats) I'll let it go on for a bit. If somebody complains I'll knock it off.

Somebody mentioned that if the drummer is throwing his bandmates off, he's probably throwing the audience off too. I agree to a point. If the dance floor is full of hot chicks I want to inspire their shirts to come off. That will leave a bigger impression than displaced beats and polyrhythms ever will. If it's a more cerebral (or just plain boring) gig, I need to entertain myself somehow.

My bandmates are pretty used to my bag of tricks now. they just carry on with their parts and we all meet up in a measure or so.

KO

 

[Krispy]

Interesting thread. I immediately thought of one of my favorite bassist/drummer combinations - Colin Edwin & Gavin Harrison of Porcupine Tree. So many polyrhythms and unusual time signatures and yet they both manage to resolve through the overall phrasing of the song.

A good comment from Colin Edwin in the September 2007 issue of Bass Player: “Our drummer, Gavin Harrison, likes playing ‘rhythmic illusions,’ in which he makes small pattern changes that make it seem like the tempo or time signature has altered. This regimen helped me with Gavin’s approach by reinforcing that the time is still there and that it will eventually resolve. If you play a major scale in 4/4 with a metronome, you have a nice, even set of beats and notes that resolve together. If you play it as a seven-beat scale, skipping the octave but keeping the click going on every other beat, there’s a moment when the click is no longer where you expect it, but you eventually hear it on the octave.”

Sounds to me like you have an excellent drummer with a creative sense of musicianship. I'm very jealous!

 

[Bhuti]

Count, do it out loud if you have to, but best to leave that at home. Count in your head, you'll always be on time if you focus and count. Also with odd times or higher numbered signatures, learn to subdivide (6 becomes 3+3, 2+4, etc).

Do whatever you have to do to hold it down.