Any true humbucking J pickups around?

[honeyiscool]

I find it strange that you use one example of a split coil J pickup, and not even a particularly well regarded one (if it were good, they’d sell it separately), to make blanket assumptions about the entire world of split coil pickups, which come in all wind and magnet and design combinations.

 

[Fab Superlative]

Perhaps you need active pickups with a preamp that has a baked in response that would better meet your tonal goals. Or perhaps you need a pickup system that would allow a dummy coil to be inserted in series with the single coil jazz pickup for noise cancellation and to give you more of a humbucker impedance and tone profile.

Ala' [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[BobKos]

If you want true humbuckers, put them in. Nobody makes what you want that I know of.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

Ala' [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Yessss ... but ... routing on the way!

 

[TuneSalad666]

Wasnex is right ... two single coils j pickups in parallel may have the brightness you look for but this requires routing ... why don’t you call the guys at Seymour Duncan since you like the sound of one of their pickup? I believe that their custom shop may wind for you a pickup with the sought tonal characteristics which can be installed inside a j bass pickup cover ... the guys there are extremely competent and willing to assist.

Note:

I knew that you wanted something in particular or you had something particular in mind which you didn’t know was existing or not ... then why mounting all this drama, which ultimately demonstrated that what you look for does not even exist? You could simply start by saying “Guys, there’s this particular pickup that I like the tone of ... do you know whether somebody makes a similar one which can be placed inside a J bass pickup cover?” .. much simpler, clearer and effective approach IMO.

Cheers.

Thank you for suggesting contacting Seymour Duncan's custom shop.

I find it strange that you use one example of a split coil J pickup, and not even a particularly well regarded one (if it were good, they’d sell it separately), to make blanket assumptions about the entire world of split coil pickups, which come in all wind and magnet and design combinations.

Also retrospectively, sure I should have formulated my question differently to get an answer more in line with what I wanted to achieve.

Retrospectively a lot of things seems to get much clearer generally though, when you get all the information and knowledge you didn't have when you originally started out.

In other words I couldn't know to start with that I didn't ask the right question, it's not like I on purpose decided to formulated the wrong question and wanted to start a lot of drama and get a lot of answers that I couldn't use for what I wanted to achieve.

That wouldn't make any sense, would it?

Really nothing strange about it, the answer is as simple as I couldn't.

If I could have I would have.

It's easy to be wise retrospectively.

Finally the question in it's original form actually also still interests me, even if the answer to it can't be used to achieve what I want.

 

[mcnach]

It's easy to be wise retrospectively.

Ain't that the truth.

In the future, the snarky answers you gave to people who spent time trying to help are probably best avoided. Then there will be no drama, even when you're not quite sure how to ask for what you want. Most people here just really try to help and learn stuff and are here because we like bass stuff, not to start cat fights or put anybody down.

Anyway, good luck in your search... I'm positive you'll find something that works for you (soundwise). There are a few good suggestions here already.

 

[TuneSalad666]

Ain't that the truth.

In the future, the snarky answers you gave to people who spent time trying to help are probably best avoided. Then there will be no drama, even when you're not quite sure how to ask for what you want. Most people here just really try to help and learn stuff and are here because we like bass stuff, not to start cat fights or put anybody down.

Anyway, good luck in your search... I'm positive you'll find something that works for you (soundwise). There are a few good suggestions here already.

What snarky answers, honestly?

I told some people that their suggestions was not what I was looking for, how is that snarky?

And then I spoke back to some people who obviously only wanted to stir up troubles.

I did give one undeserved snarky remark to someone, which I also apologized for.

What is your problem?

[Insert wise lesson that already has been beaten to death and won't help you one bit, but will make me look good]

 

[mcnach]

What snarky answers, honestly?

I told some people that their answers was not what I was looking for, how is that snarky?

And then I spoke back to some people who obviously only wanted to stir up troubles.

I did give one undeserved snarky remark to someone, which I also apologized for.

What is your problem?

Hey, keep doing what you're doing...
I'm sure it'll work out charmingly for you

 

[honeyiscool]

Thank you for suggesting contacting Seymour Duncan's custom shop.



Also retrospectively, sure I should have formulated my question differently to get an answer more in line with what I wanted to achieve.

Retrospectively a lot of things seems to get much clearer generally though, when you get all the information and knowledge you didn't have when you originally started out.

In other words I couldn't know to start with that I didn't ask the right question, it's not like I on purpose decided to formulated the wrong question and wanted to start a lot of drama and get a lot of answers that I couldn't use for what I wanted to achieve.

That wouldn't make any sense, would it?

Really nothing strange about it, the answer is as simple as I couldn't.

If I could have I would have.

It's easy to be wise retrospectively.

Finally the question in it's original form actually also still interests me, even if the answer to it can't be used to achieve what I want.

I think ultimately your original answer is flawed in its premise because I actually do understand the notion of a “true” humbucker as in something that resembles a PAF as Seth Lover designed it, a large pickup with coils in series (which actually excludes the original MusicMan humbucker, funny enough). And plenty of basses do have them. Most soap bars are internally exactly that and it’s quite easy to get that tonality as a result.

Where your premise ultimately is flawed is that even in the guitar world, mini side by side rails sound nothing like PAFs. The actual size of the pickup sensing area is a huge part of tone. This is why a PAF sized P90 never sounds exactly like a P90, even when you use the same design, materials, and windings. At the risk of grossly simplifying, usually overwound coils will sound stronger in the mids and putting coils in series will give you bolder mids and higher output. To get a truly warmer and bigger bass, I have found that you often need physically bigger pickups. You can’t just wind your hot rails hotter and expect it to sound like a PAF. This is why MM pickups, despite the scooper clarity of their parallel wiring, still have some of that huge sound. I would expect split coil P90s to sound warmer than Strat sized hot rails. In fact, side by side rails are one of the many designs used in the guitar world to get single coil sounding humbuckers. GFS Neovin, Lace Holy Grail, and MojoTone Quiet Coil are side by side humbuckers (some with purely cosmetic pole pieces) that are advertised as sounding exactly like a single coil. Meanwhile, to get a PAF sized pickup to actually sound like a single coil seems very difficult unless you just physically use half the size of the pickup.

Anyway, the point I’m making is that for whatever reason, Jazz Bass pickups are rarely made in rail form. And because of that, you might assume that somehow the splits are not giving you what the rails promise. Meanwhile, in the Strat world, split coils are practically unheard of. In both worlds, stacks are often frowned upon for their supposed lack of clarity, though they’re much more researched and accepted in the Strat world. But they usually sound much more like a single coil than they do a PAF. And I believe this is due to size.

Not all Jazz splits are designed to sound like a Jazz Bass single, though. For instance, DiMarzio makes three: Area, Ultra, Model. Only the Area is supposed to sound like a single. Ultra is a high output, modern pickup that can match the output of a P neck pickup but still sounds like a J to some extent. Model is a beefy, medium output pickup that really doesn’t sound that much like a J. Most of the boutiques do try to basically sound like a J or a beefy J, but any of the custom shops could fix that up for you. The Duncan Apollo pickups, which are not boutique but they are what I use in my PJ basses, they sound a little bit warmer and bigger than a real J as well. Some people consider that a problem, I consider it a feature.

 

[TuneSalad666]

I think ultimately your original answer is flawed in its premise because I actually do understand the notion of a “true” humbucker as in something that resembles a PAF as Seth Lover designed it, a large pickup with coils in series (which actually excludes the original MusicMan humbucker, funny enough). And plenty of basses do have them. Most soap bars are internally exactly that and it’s quite easy to get that tonality as a result.

Where your premise ultimately is flawed is that even in the guitar world, mini side by side rails sound nothing like PAFs. The actual size of the pickup sensing area is a huge part of tone. This is why a PAF sized P90 never sounds exactly like a P90, even when you use the same design, materials, and windings. At the risk of grossly simplifying, usually overwound coils will sound stronger in the mids and putting coils in series will give you bolder mids and higher output. To get a truly warmer and bigger bass, I have found that you often need physically bigger pickups. You can’t just wind your hot rails hotter and expect it to sound like a PAF. This is why MM pickups, despite the scooper clarity of their parallel wiring, still have some of that huge sound. I would expect split coil P90s to sound warmer than Strat sized hot rails. In fact, side by side rails are one of the many designs used in the guitar world to get single coil sounding humbuckers. GFS Neovin, Lace Holy Grail, and MojoTone Quiet Coil are side by side humbuckers (some with purely cosmetic pole pieces) that are advertised as sounding exactly like a single coil. Meanwhile, to get a PAF sized pickup to actually sound like a single coil seems very difficult unless you just physically use half the size of the pickup.

Anyway, the point I’m making is that for whatever reason, Jazz Bass pickups are rarely made in rail form. And because of that, you might assume that somehow the splits are not giving you what the rails promise. Meanwhile, in the Strat world, split coils are practically unheard of. In both worlds, stacks are often frowned upon for their supposed lack of clarity, though they’re much more researched and accepted in the Strat world. But they usually sound much more like a single coil than they do a PAF. And I believe this is due to size.

Not all Jazz splits are designed to sound like a Jazz Bass single, though. For instance, DiMarzio makes three: Area, Ultra, Model. Only the Area is supposed to sound like a single. Ultra is a high output, modern pickup that can match the output of a P neck pickup but still sounds like a J to some extent. Model is a beefy, medium output pickup that really doesn’t sound that much like a J. Most of the boutiques do try to basically sound like a J or a beefy J, but any of the custom shops could fix that up for you. The Duncan Apollo pickups, which are not boutique but they are what I use in my PJ basses, they sound a little bit warmer and bigger than a real J as well. Some people consider that a problem, I consider it a feature.

The thing is I had to boil my question down to fit a headline, as the headline wouldn't hold my entire definition, and no one seems to know what single term would actually cover my definition, had to call it something.

Doesn't really matter if your idea of true humbuckers differs from mine, or if it is even a real term that means anything in it self, as I define in my original post exactly what I mean by it perfectly clear for people to answer what it is I am trying to figure out.

My original question was not weather true humbuckers is a real term or not, though that might still be somewhat relevant if someone could inform me of the right term for what I am searching for.

My original question was what kind of pickups suits the definition I asked for.

I get by now that the answer to my original question would not really help me to achieve what I want with it, I still find the original question interesting and relevant though, as I am sure I am not the only one who would be interested to know what the market offers in terms of traditional humbuckers (as I defined the term, no matter what the real term might be) in a J pickup housing, rare or not, or actually even more interesting because that format seems to be relatively rare.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

What snarky answers, honestly?

I told some people that their suggestions was not what I was looking for, how is that snarky?

And then I spoke back to some people who obviously only wanted to stir up troubles.

I did give one undeserved snarky remark to someone, which I also apologized for.

What is your problem?

[Insert wise lesson that already has been beaten to death and won't help you one bit, but will make me look good]

 

[honeyiscool]

Nobody would have gotten on your case if you didn’t basically call Joe Barden or SGD pickups traditional. Sure, the basic design has been around since the early 60s with Gibson Firebird and is almost as old as the Jazz Bass itself, but the word traditional gets people worked up.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

The thing is I had to boil my question down to fit a headline, as the headline wouldn't hold my entire definition, and no one seems to know what single term would actually cover my definition, had to call it something.

Doesn't really matter if your idea of true humbuckers differs from mine, or if it is even a real term that means anything in it self, as I define in my original post exactly what I mean by it perfectly clear for people to answer what it is I am trying to figure out.

My original question was not weather true humbuckers is a real term or not, though that might still be somewhat relevant if someone could inform me of the right term for what I am searching for.

My original question was what kind of pickups suits the definition I asked for.

I get by now that the answer to my original question would not really help me to achieve what I want with it, I still find the original question interesting and relevant though, as I am sure I am not the only one who would be interested to know what the market offers in terms of traditional humbuckers (as I defined the term, no matter what the real term might be) in a J pickup housing, rare or not, or actually even more interesting because that format seems to be relatively rare.

Bah... in general people ask information for dealing with specific and clear needs ... the discussion you started seems to be rather sterile being ultimately based on the search for a non-existing pickup ... honeyiscool has provided you with a rather substantial technical explanation on why what you look for doesn’t have the form you have in mind ... other users have suggested to get in touch with thd tech. dept. of manufacturers ... this now closes the matter ... good luck in your search hoping it is not a chimera

 

[TuneSalad666]

Nobody would have gotten on your case if you didn’t basically call Joe Barden or SGD pickups traditional. Sure, the basic design has been around since the early 60s with Gibson Firebird and is almost as old as the Jazz Bass itself, but the word traditional gets people worked up.

The term true, later corrected to traditional, since that seemed slightly more fitting, was not aimed at the format Joe Barden or SGD pickups use in specific, but actually more a term I used to cover my definition of what kind of humbuckers I was searching for, aka "pickups that uses two coils run in serial connection under two parallel rows of polepieces or rails.".

I personally never once in this thread or elsewhere called Joe Barden or SGD pickups traditional, though I would still use the term traditional humbucker for the way they actually work, in lack of a better term to cover my definition.

Bah... in general people ask information for dealing with specific and clear needs ... the discussion you started seems to be rather sterile being ultimately based on the search for a non-existing pickup ...

I don't agree.

Someone did link to some pickups that fitted my definition perfectly, which means what I asked for does exist, even if seemingly rare.

And even if the answer showed not to be able to get me any closer to achieve what I wanted, something that was not even included in my original post, I still find technical and theoretical questions relevant, as in this situation where I simply asked of exiting examples of a specific pickup type.

You might not find that relevant or interesting information, but something should tell you that I do, since I asked the question, and that I would probably not be the only one either.

Don't see how people got so worked up about me asking a question without including a specific goal for what I wanted to use the answer, honestly.

 

[honeyiscool]

The term true, later corrected to traditional, since that seemed slightly more fitting, was not aimed at the format Joe Barden or SGD pickups use in specific, but actually more a term I used to cover my definition of what kind of humbuckers I was searching for, aka "pickups that uses two coils run in serial connection under two parallel rows of polepieces or rails.".

I personally never once in this thread or elsewhere called Joe Barden or SGD pickups traditional, though I would still use the term traditional humbucker for the way they actually work, in lack of a better term to cover my definition.

Historically, though, among major guitar pickups, there are four major humbucker designs I’m aware of before 1970:

1. Two rows of pole pieces with one bar magnet underneath. PAF and mini PAF.
2. Two half sized shells, each covering half the strings. Rod magnets. P Bass and Mustang Bass.
3. Two coils wound around full length bar magnets. Gibson Firebird.
4. Two full sized coils where only half the pole pieces are magnetic. Fender Wide Range.

The problem with your terminology is all of these are ultimately traditional humbucker designs.

 

[TuneSalad666]

Historically, though, among major guitar pickups, there are four major humbucker designs I’m aware of before 1970:

1. Two rows of pole pieces with one bar magnet underneath. PAF and mini PAF.
2. Two half sized shells, each covering half the strings. Rod magnets. P Bass and Mustang Bass.
3. Two coils wound around full length bar magnets. Gibson Firebird.
4. Two full sized coils where only half the pole pieces are magnetic. Fender Wide Range.

The problem with your terminology is all of these are ultimately traditional humbucker designs.

Ok, then...

As I already explained I needed a single term for my headline to this thread to cover my definition, what term would you have used to make it clear already in the headline what I was searching for then?

I get now that traditional humbuckers might have been a slightly misleading or at least unclear term compared to how I defined what I meant by it in my initial post, but did I actually have any choice to use a term that would have been more fitting and precise?

If the answer is no I don't really see what this discussion is about, other than nitpicking over the use of a word, you don't have any better alternatives for, that really just was used as a placeholder in the headline to cover a definition I made perfectly clear what was in the actual post.

 

[mbene085]

Historically, though, among major guitar pickups, there are four major humbucker designs I’m aware of before 1970:

1. Two rows of pole pieces with one bar magnet underneath. PAF and mini PAF.
2. Two half sized shells, each covering half the strings. Rod magnets. P Bass and Mustang Bass.
3. Two coils wound around full length bar magnets. Gibson Firebird.
4. Two full sized coils where only half the pole pieces are magnetic. Fender Wide Range.

The problem with your terminology is all of these are ultimately traditional humbucker designs.

#4 is incorrect. All polepieces in a WRHB are magnetic. It's just that half of them are threaded and height-adjustable, and the other half are not. There was a trend in the '70s where some players removed the 6 threaded poles, leaving you with a pickup somewhat like you describe, but that was never an intended feature.

Technically the description of a WRHB would be "two oversized coils with magnetic polepieces rather than a bar magnet and screw/slug polepieces"

 

[Coolhandjjl]

I’d call a botique place like Jason Lollar or Lindy Fralin and tell them you want something like a Seth Lover PAF but for bass and in a J sized case.

They may tell you it can’t be done due to the narrowness of the case, but then at least you’ll know for sure either way.

 

[honeyiscool]

#4 is incorrect. All polepieces in a WRHB are magnetic. It's just that half of them are threaded and height-adjustable, and the other half are not. There was a trend in the '70s where some players removed the 6 threaded poles, leaving you with a pickup somewhat like you describe, but that was never an intended feature.

Technically the description of a WRHB would be "two oversized coils with magnetic polepieces rather than a bar magnet and screw/slug polepieces"

Thanks for the correction! Were all 12 made of CuNiFe?

 

[mbene085]

Thanks for the correction! Were all 12 made of CuNiFe?

Yes, all 12 were.

The 6 "non-height-adjustable" poles could still be accessed from underneath the pickup. They were threaded as well, which is why players were able to unscrew them (from the bottom) to remove them. So maybe I shouldn't have called them non-adjustable - they were just the poles that couldn't be raised through the cover to adjust string balance is all.

The funny thing is that, not only are original WHRBs worth their weight in gold now, but the CuNiFe magnets are the majority of that value - and people in the 70's were pulling half of them out and probably losing/discarding them.