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Anyone read the Fountainhead

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I am an architect. Just about everything Ayn Rand wrote about the practice of architecture in Fountainhead was factually wrong. What she says isn't how it works, never has been, never will be. As far as her writing, it's better than her grasp of facts or philosophy, but that's not saying much.

After reading the Fountainhead, I chose to waste my time reading Das Kapital instead of Atlas Shrugged. It's pretty much the flip side of the same muddle headed utopian coin, so I have a balanced and informed view of mental energy gone bad in both directions. My lasting impression from both Karl Marx and Ayn Rand is that ideology makes for dull books and duller thinking.
 
In reality I can't think of one political or.economic philosophy which could stand on its own in the real world- on that note Marx and rand sink in the same boat known as reality.
Agreed. Marxism collapses under its own weight, Randian Capitalism consumes itself.
At the risk of venturing into a political science 101 class, does pointing out that extremes don't work invalidate the direction those extremes strive for?
 
At the risk of venturing into a political science 101 class, does pointing out that extremes don't work invalidate the direction those extremes strive for?

I don't think that's political science 101. I think it is observation. Ideology comes from taking a set of observations and squeezing them into a system of thought that doesn't account for other observations. The world is a much more complex place than ideology can accommodate, but that doesn't mean an ideology has absolutely no grains of truth in it. Ideology just doesn't have all the truth and comes abruptly to grief when the sharp points of truth it ignores poke through its thin shell.
 
I don't think that's political science 101. I think it is observation. Ideology comes from taking a set of observations and squeezing them into a system of thought that doesn't account for other observations. The world is a much more complex place than ideology can accommodate, but that doesn't mean an ideology has absolutely no grains of truth in it. Ideology just doesn't have all the truth and comes abruptly to grief when the sharp points of truth it ignores poke through its thin shell.

You've apparently read my thoughts in the Bigfoot thread.:|
 
I read it. It's a great book with a great protagonist. Howard Roarke. All the Ayn Rand politicized crap is totally superfluous to the story itself. It's a great piece of writing with a really interesting look at architecture and the industry of building buildings as a whole through the arc of the protagonist who rises from the quarry to become prominent architect. There's a great quote in there about architects packaging and selling space and nothingness. I think she also accurately portrays the politics of an industry and corporate offices and all the character types that have roles in this setting. I often find myself thinking about that book, especially when I'm in a big city like New York. Sometimes I try to find the buildings that would meet Howard Roarke's strict standards.

But part of her message had to do with designing to satisfy the critics and people becoming known for something when they aren't the creative/driving force behind it. Roark decided that he'd rather destroy his work instead of having it changed into something he hated, through someone's influence on public opinion or because someone dangles a bunch of money in front of him.

The fact that he was involved with the clients' wife skews everything, too.

For all of the praise Frank Lloyd Wright has received for his designs, they were based on his perspective and size, not that of "normal" people.
 
It's pretty easy to get into an ad hominem rant against Rand, because, let's face it: she was pretty much a horrible human being and a huge hypocrite. Not only did she collect benefits when she was old and dying of cancer, but she complained about "looters" and "parasites" without the least hint of irony while stealing ideas from much more accomplished philosophers, such as Nietzsche and Locke, without giving them credit.

On a very shallow level, I think her idea of being the best you can be and making your own destiny is a really good and inspiring thing to live by. When given more in-depth analysis, it's easy to see the glaring problems with Rand and Objectivism. She never provided a convincing refutation of Kant. Science is never going to be able to adopt Objectivist principles in place of Kantian principles, because all knowledge is ultimately processed through some form of human interpretation. Not only that, but Objectivist ontology has been pretty well debunked by sociology, anthropology, and even physics. For anyone with at least an informed understanding of sociology or economics, it's tough to read d'Anconia's speech at James Taggart's wedding about the exchange of value, because it's completely wrong in terms of how value is actually socially constructed.

With that said, I wouldn't ever discourage anyone from reading Rand's works. I disagree with her on just about everything and think that Objectivism is Fisher-Price's My First Philosophy, but her writings are important to 20th Century literature. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're good, but they are important.

...To be fair, Rand is often criticized for her writing style, but she does have some moments of true brilliance. The chapter in Atlas where Dagny takes the John Galt line on its maiden run was incredibly well-written. I get that she was always trying to nail that romantic period aesthetic with her writing. I often wonder if not being a native English speaker is why some of her writing often had a very clinical feel to it.
As always, it's a pleasure to read your posts. Such a keen mind, and such an insightful nutshell. But...

As a writer, I can't endorse Rand's prose, even absent her message. Sure, she has moments of inspired adequacy, but if you write 500,00 words, chances are you'll strike lucky for a few thousand. And I can't give her a pass for being a non-native English writer: Nabakov wrote Lolita in English, then translated it into Russian. It is anything but clinical, and deliciously nuanced. Finally, never underestimate the effect of a good editor on a rambling, unruly manuscript--publishing is a collective effort. :D

I just can't find much good about the writing, the language, or the childishly allegorical plot. Rand's compulsion to overwrite doesn't advance the novel or the message--it's simply (ironically) self-indulgent. She fails by her own measure; there is very little purity in her bloated, wooden, one-dimensional product.

At the risk of taking an ad hominem swipe, I can't help but believe that Rand's well-documented benzedrine addiction contributed to the tone of her work. Writers are not a moderate lot by nature, and she's hardly the only one to boost productivity with speed. But her prose doesn't have the easy authority of Graham Greene, or the jittery confidence of Jack Kerouac; it just seems crankily overwrought.
 
As always, it's a pleasure to read your posts. Such a keen mind, and such an insightful nutshell. But...

Thank you for the compliment.

As a writer, I can't endorse Rand's prose, even absent her message. Sure, she has moments of inspired adequacy, but if you write 500,00 words, chances are you'll strike lucky for a few thousand. And I can't give her a pass for being a non-native English writer: Nabakov wrote Lolita in English, then translated it into Russian. It is anything but clinical, and deliciously nuanced. Finally, never underestimate the effect of a good editor on a rambling, unruly manuscript--publishing is a collective effort. :D

I actually agree. I just find that sometimes Rand does actually produce a literary unit that makes me stand up and say, "That's actually pretty good." However, her awkward and purely bad moments greatly outnumber the times where she hits the mark. I can't remember the exact wording of the simile, but there's a line in Atlas Shrugged where she compares the face of Rearden's secretary to an office machine. :eyebrow:

or the childishly allegorical plot

One of Rand's glaring weaknesses is that her books are choke-full of some of the worst strawmen to ever grace modern discourse. The "bad guys" in her novels rarely have any motivation for what they do other than their blind belief that collectivism is good and making profit or being an individual is bad. Of course, most people, when either considered as individuals or as a group, never act this way. Most people have some sort of rationality, flawed or not, driving what they do and what they believe (which is ironic considering Rand's obsession with being rational).

As far as a comparison between Rand and Marx - they do exist pretty much at the exact opposite ends of the ideological spectrum, which warrants some comparison of political thinking. However, Marx's intellectual output is much more wide-reaching than Rand's. While communism was a failure, Marx produced an intellectual paradigm that continues to have a big influence on the social sciences and humanities. Hopefully I'm not being too political, but people like David Horowitz think that the academy is full of Marxists. Aside from some cherry-picked examples, it really isn't. It's just that a lot of academics conduct research or write papers using a conflict theory perspective, which Marx originated. While many of them fall on the left side of the spectrum, they aren't necessarily looking to overthrow the bourgeoisie and seize the means of production, at least in my experience.

Rand's influence seems to begin and end in Objectivist circles. What I mean by that is she hasn't really influenced further scholarship or thinking (obviously she has an influence insofar as individuals finding meaning in her works as evidence by her book sales). She has some influence on libertarianism, but there's always been an animosity between Objectivists and libertarians, which I find somewhat puzzling. Rand and William Buckley, who was considered to be at the vanguard of conservative thought, famously derided each other. Most trained philosophers don't give serious attention to any of Rand's work. While Leonard Peikoff is a trained philosopher, he was actually an Objectivist before he went to school for philosophy. I don't think most philosophers would enter grad school and then "come to" Objectivism during or after their studies (but hey, I could be wrong there). I suppose it could be argued that Rand isn't given much credence in philosophy because of a political or ideological bias against her work, but it's been my experience that philosophers and political scientists treat Robert Nozick's work with quite a bit of respect, even if they don't agree with it. Also, you're not getting out of any undergrad philosophy program without some discussion of Nietzsche, who was the premiere individualist philosopher.
 
I find her writing fascinating. I suppose that's why God created more than one flavor ice cream. :)

Pretty sure man created ice cream flavors. Also, ice cream.



Well....with the help of cows.



Anyway, the ice cream analogy doesnt really work. If you really like ice cream, you probably like all flavors. I know i do. Not equal, but if its ice cream, it's going in my mouth and i don't care what flavor it is.
 
But part of her message had to do with designing to satisfy the critics and people becoming known for something when they aren't the creative/driving force behind it. Roark decided that he'd rather destroy his work instead of having it changed into something he hated, through someone's influence on public opinion or because someone dangles a bunch of money in front of him.

As someone who spent many years designing and building web content, I can relate to this. :p

Look I enjoyed the book for what it was an entertaining story. Politically, I couldn't be farther aligned from the author. Doesn't mean I can enjoy her book. I don't have to agree with an author's politics or philosophy to enjoy their writing. It just means I'm not going to waste a lot of time analyzing it. I have plenty of other great authors to do that with.
 
As someone who spent many years designing and building web content, I can relate to this. :p

Look I enjoyed the book for what it was an entertaining story. Politically, I couldn't be farther aligned from the author. Doesn't mean I can enjoy her book. I don't have to agree with an author's politics or philosophy to enjoy their writing. It just means I'm not going to waste a lot of time analyzing it. I have plenty of other great authors to do that with.

If people only read, watch and listen to what they agree with, debate will be lost because there's never any dissenting or differing opinions or statements. How is that acceptable? All that does is polarize people and it's what we have come to now- people on each side are making assumptions about the other side without wanting to listen to what they have to say.

We can't progress with a total impasse.
 
If people only read, watch and listen to what they agree with, debate will be lost because there's never any dissenting or differing opinions or statements. How is that acceptable? All that does is polarize people and it's what we have come to now- people on each side are making assumptions about the other side without wanting to listen to what they have to say.

We can't progress with a total impasse.

Agreed, however what you're describing is currently the trend. People are moving to locations they find likeminded neighbors, getting their news from outlets that share their political biases, and seeking out entertainment that fits their worldview. We're sorting ourselves and inbreeding and concentrating our ideologies.
 
Agreed, however what you're describing is currently the trend. People are moving to locations they find likeminded neighbors, getting their news from outlets that share their political biases, and seeking out entertainment that fits their worldview. We're sorting ourselves and inbreeding and concentrating our ideologies.

I blame all those other people for behaving like this.

:ninja:
 
Agreed, however what you're describing is currently the trend. People are moving to locations they find likeminded neighbors, getting their news from outlets that share their political biases, and seeking out entertainment that fits their worldview. We're sorting ourselves and inbreeding and concentrating our ideologies.

I wouldn't move to a place where conflicts with my neighbors was guaranteed. I don't care if I agree with everyone I meet, know or talk with, but I do require that they not be abusive about the differences. I have some friends who are very liberal and one usually needles me about Capitalism & the lack of ethics that goes with it. I keep repeating that a lot of businesses are owned and operated by people who are very Liberal, that many of the World's wealthiest people are Liberals and I don't see them living in squalor. Of the wealthy people I know, on the contrary, they live more luxuriously than most of the Conservatives I know.

My friend asked if I wanted a lap steel guitar and a small amp- he decided that he didn't need the guitar and couldn't get the amp to work reliably, even after I recommended a few tips. I asked how much, he told me and we agreed to meet. When I saw it, I gave more than he asked and he tried to return the difference. He said it was wrong to take more and I refused, telling him that it would be wrong to pay what he asked because wach is worth more than he asked.
 
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