Apoyando- Tips for bass players?

[vindibona1]

In an earlier thread @JamesCollins suggested a technique I hadn't heard of, which for bass players seems to be a derivitive of classical plucking technique. In his remarks James talked briefly about the technique. And the I remarked:
@vindibona1: "I've not heard that before. Would pushing toward the body not make it more difficult if you use a raking technique to descend to lower strings?"

@Bassdirty also made the following comments:

+1 . I cant even imagine how it could work, to "push the strings toward the body, NOT toward the next string"?..

That conversation sort of opened my eyes. But at the same time I had to wonder how literal it was meant to "push the strings toward the body". And so I began experimenting. And this is where I need to be corrected or coached a little more, at least for understanding... There is *sort of* a downward push, but seemingly not 90° toward the bad, but in more of a "downward direction". I'd say more like 45° if I had to put a number on it. So I take that to mean that when you push ANGULARLY off the string, you land on the string above it, which then "supports" the finger, stopping it. Finding that angle is sort of where I'm in the discovery mode right now.

Before this I saw people only using straight fingers not understanding how they could do that. It seemed so much less efficient than a claw-like pluck, or as some would call it a "free stroke" (vs a "rest stroke" aka apoyando... I think). I saw the merit because of how those using the apoyando described the sound. And yes, the sound it different.

And so, after this long winded introduction, I was wondering if there was any advice or any tips on how to work on this. Bad habits that can be inadvertantly formed without in-person introduction? How can this be adopted better and or faster and more effectively? How hard do you have to pluck, or conversely how light can you pluck to do it effectively? While I can be very light with a free stroke, I found that I can only be so light with the rest stroke. Is my perception correct that the rest stroke/apoyando has to load up a bit on the string before releasting it?

I'll stop here, but I'm sure I have 50 more questions. Thanks to James Collins for the inspiration and thanks in advance to anyone who cares to participate in the discussion.

 

[Sursonique]

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing, but I studied classical Spanish guitar (specialised in tango) and the "apoyado" is a classical technique widely used for plucking solos to highlight the melody and i actually use this kind of plucking in my bass playing mainly because of habit.
See this video for reference (it is the second one he talks about - video in spanish, sorry)



is this what you are talking about? If it is, how lightly or heavily to pluck depends on the piece really, this technique is about feel, not effectiveness. it must be certainly a stronger stroke on bass, due the nature of the strings, and it will vary also on what kind of strings you are using. Now i learned this technique when I was 8 years old, so at this point is kinda mechanical for me so it is hard to explain it, just a matter of practice and making sure you keep the diagonal 45º angle towards you until it becomes natural. there really is no secret.

 

[vindibona1]

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing, but I studied classical Spanish guitar (specialised in tango) and the "apoyado" is a classical technique widely used for plucking solos to highlight the melody and i actually use this kind of plucking in my bass playing mainly because of habit.
See this video for reference (it is the second one he talks about - video in spanish, sorry)



is this what you are talking about? If it is, how lightly or heavily to pluck depends on the piece really, this technique is about feel, not effectiveness. it must be certainly a stronger stroke on bass, due the nature of the strings, and it will vary also on what kind of strings you are using. Now i learned this technique when I was 8 years old, so at this point is kinda mechanical for me so it is hard to explain it, just a matter of practice and making sure you keep the diagonal 45º angle towards you until it becomes natural. there really is no secret.

Sí, el segundo es correcto. El español no es problema. Viví en México durante un año y estudié en la Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México.

I was about to post another thread about the benefit of private lessons. I understand the concept of touch and the strength of the stroke needed. But there are other elements involved in bass too; not only how hard or lightly you must pluck, but the angle at which you do it due to needed finger strength and the hand angle which helps set the angle at which the fingers not only strike, but land/rest on the string about it.

I've been playing with this for over a week, and while I am making progress, there are many questions involving how it's best to approach it. I can see the value of having this in my arsenal. I naturally use the first style presented on the video as I learned "folk style" guitar beginning when I was 13. However I did not learn classical Spanish style and so apoyando is quite new to me. But I can already see that it has some uses and really can expand my tonal and musical palette.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Les Fret]

Not sure if I understand the question. Apoyando meaning rest stroke is the first thing you learn when you pick up an electric bass or take lessons. Just let your right hand fingers fall naturally on the next lower string. That’s all.

 

[vindibona1]

Not sure if I understand the question. Apoyando meaning rest stroke is the first thing you learn when you pick up an electric bass or take lessons. Just let your right hand fingers fall naturally on the next lower string. That’s all.

Sorry, but it wasn't the first thing I learned when I picked up a bass, took bass lessons or when I took folk guitar lessons as a kid. I didn't even know it existed until a few threads ago. I was people, like me who played with curved fingers, like one would finger pick a guitar and others who played with straight fingers. I didn't understand how the straight fingers worked or were beneficial. I just knews that some guys could play blazingly fast and was intrigued.

So, to clarify and simplify the question, I'm looking for tips to refine the development of apoyando.

But when you say "Just let your right hand fingers fall naturally on the next lower string. That’s all." I don't think that's all- at all. As @JamesCollins was explaining it, which made me curious, he stated that with apoyando, the fingers push toward the body rather than pulling up on the string. And until I started messing with the direction of the "push" it didn't make sense. You see, when I descend, from higher strings to lower, I would naturally (after training and practice) us the raking technique, which would naturally land your finger on the lower string. But only on descending. But it doesn't provide the same attack or release that the apoyando attack that some spoke about in that earlier thread.

What I've found is there are different angles of "pushing down toward the body" that one can approach from. The straighter fingers, as they push down naturally land on the string, but by the nearer to the first knuckle than directly on the "fingerprint" part of the finger, as it would if I were plucking toward the top of the bass. But if I want to play lightly... there's the question because if done incorrectly while playing lighter you lose the atttacks... and that's where my conundrum lies.

 

[Les Fret]

Sorry, but it wasn't the first thing I learned when I picked up a bass, took bass lessons or when I took folk guitar lessons as a kid. I didn't even know it existed until a few threads ago. I was people, like me who played with curved fingers, like one would finger pick a guitar and others who played with straight fingers. I didn't understand how the straight fingers worked or were beneficial. I just knews that some guys could play blazingly fast and was intrigued.

So, to clarify and simplify the question, I'm looking for tips to refine the development of apoyando.

But when you say "Just let your right hand fingers fall naturally on the next lower string. That’s all." I don't think that's all- at all. As @JamesCollins was explaining it, which made me curious, he stated that with apoyando, the fingers push toward the body rather than pulling up on the string. And until I started messing with the direction of the "push" it didn't make sense. You see, when I descend, from higher strings to lower, I would naturally (after training and practice) us the raking technique, which would naturally land your finger on the lower string. But only on descending. But it doesn't provide the same attack or release that the apoyando attack that some spoke about in that earlier thread.

What I've found is there are different angles of "pushing down toward the body" that one can approach from. The straighter fingers, as they push down naturally land on the string, but by the nearer to the first knuckle than directly on the "fingerprint" part of the finger, as it would if I were plucking toward the top of the bass. But if I want to play lightly... there's the question because if done incorrectly while playing lighter you lose the atttacks... and that's where my conundrum lies.

It’s the first thing I teach all my students in the very first lesson. I think you analyze it too much. The finger fall naturally on the next lower string. You don’t have to push them towards the body. You don’t pull your fingers up like with a tirando stroke. It’s exactly the same technique as they use on classical guitar.

This video says it all:

 

[vindibona1]

It’s the first thing I teach all my students in the very first lesson. I think you analyze it too much. The finger fall naturally on the next lower string. You don’t have to push them towards the body. You don’t pull your fingers up like with a tirando stroke. It’s exactly the same technique as they use on classical guitar.

This video says it all:

With all due respect, the video does not say it all. It says PART of it- and leaves as many questions as it provides answers. And I know you didn't mean anything disrespectful when you said "I think you analyze it too much". As an individual, analysis is my nature and how I learn.

As I look at the demonstration of Scott Devine and compare it to how Andrew Gouche attacks the strings and then Federico Malaman it appears that there is a lot of nuance between them. I don't know if you can see it, but there is a difference in the angles at how they attack the strings. In fact, if you look closely, Gouche actually changes the direction of attack some plucks being a bit more across the body and some being a bit more toward the body with straighter fingers. Similarly, if one were to look at how people "pop" when slapping, you'll see that the direction fo the pop varies from person to person. I want to understand the differences so that I can develop my techique creating the best habits for speed, musicality and sound. Do you still think I'm over-analyzing?

 

[Les Fret]

Of course no disrespect at all. Just trying to help you. Maybe check this video at from 1:15 or so.

 

[SteveCS]

I was going to post this earlier but waited a bit to see how the thread developed. I've not watched any of the videos, but from the comments I think the answers are all there. In your OP you said

...
...
Before this I saw people only using straight fingers not understanding how they could do that. It seemed so much less efficient than a claw-like pluck, or as some would call it a "free stroke" (vs a "rest stroke" aka apoyando... I think). I saw the merit because of how those using the apoyando described the sound. And yes, the sound it different.
...
...

That was the first clue. The second clue is here...

...
...
As I look at the demonstration of Scott Devine and compare it to how Andrew Gouche attacks the strings and then Federico Malaman it appears that there is a lot of nuance between them. I don't know if you can see it, but there is a difference in the angles at how they attack the strings. In fact, if you look closely, Gouche actually changes the direction of attack some plucks being a bit more across the body and some being a bit more toward the body with straighter fingers.
...
...

My point is that you can already hear how a range of tones, dynamics and other articulations can be achieved by variation in the right hand. You have seen how different players mix things up to achieve the desired results. Some of those things you see will be microscopically unique to those players due to physical differences. On the microscopic level there will be things they can do that you can't, and there will be things you can do that they can't. There will also be things that are so microscopic that they can't really be seen let alone described and copied. Beyond basic general principles and good ergonomics there is no 'most efficient' or 'most effective', nor are there any absolute best habits for speed, musicality and sound. There might well be an optimal angle of attack, tip speed, pressure or whatever for a particular tone, but your hand may well look completely different to mine when making it. So IMHO the answer to this...

...
...
I want to understand the differences so that I can develop my techique creating the best habits for speed, musicality and sound.
...

is that you need to experiment on your own coin, so to speak. Invest some of your own time trying to correlate how your own hand needs to move to create the sounds you want to hear.

IMHO, just the fact that you can hear the differences and can see the technical options available puts you well ahead of the game compared to most players. But experience tells me that the real answers will be found in the woodshed, not here. YMMV

Just to be clear, these comments are made with the best of intention...

 

[vindibona1]

I was going to post this earlier but waited a bit to see how the thread developed. I've not watched any of the videos, but from the comments I think the answers are all there. In your OP you said
That was the first clue. The second clue is here...
My point is that you can already hear how a range of tones, dynamics and other articulations can be achieved by variation in the right hand. You have seen how different players mix things up to achieve the desired results. Some of those things you see will be microscopically unique to those players due to physical differences. On the microscopic level there will be things they can do that you can't, and there will be things you can do that they can't. There will also be things that are so microscopic that they can't really be seen let alone described and copied. Beyond basic general principles and good ergonomics there is no 'most efficient' or 'most effective', nor are there any absolute best habits for speed, musicality and sound. There might well be an optimal angle of attack, tip speed, pressure or whatever for a particular tone, but your hand may well look completely different to mine when making it. So IMHO the answer to this...
is that you need to experiment on your own coin, so to speak. Invest some of your own time trying to correlate how your own hand needs to move to create the sounds you want to hear.

IMHO, just the fact that you can hear the differences and can see the technical options available puts you well ahead of the game compared to most players. But experience tells me that the real answers will be found in the woodshed, not here. YMMV

Just to be clear, these comments are made with the best of intention...

I get it. There's nothing you said that I disagree with.

Another responder said I was "over-analyzing" it. While I understand his point, I wasn't over-analyzing it... but DEEPLY analyzing it. But often i can miss things until they are pointed out. Hence all the questions. Once I delve in I begin to see nuances. But unfortunately, my learning style is a hybrid of visual, aural and kinesthetic. Do I have to first understand before I can do. Understanding the nuances, at least to me, is an important part of my learning. Heck, I didn't even know what apoyando was until a few weeks ago. I just plucked like I plucked, totaly unware. And the sad thing is that I actually did take some private lessons late last year, but obviously I was with the wrong guy because his only statement about my right hand was "your right hand seems fine". I stopped going to him because I felt he missed things and was generally unprepared [and now I'll probably do a diatribe on a new thread about that ].

Anyway... I always appreciate your input.