Applying a dye to maple: How to avoid blotchiness?

[Bruce Johnson]

if I’m using tru oil that I tint with Transtint or Mixol, which sanding sealer is compatible?

Why would you need a sanding sealer?

 

[Stagelab]

Why would you need a sanding sealer?

I’m not sure I would. It was suggested to me on this thread.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Why does Stew Mac advertise its version of Transtint with this video where he applies it directly to wood?




I’ll try mixing Transtint with DNA and then mixing that into Tru Oil.

He's using it as a Dye (or Stain) to enhance the grain of the wood, like I described above. Wiping off the excess, then applying a hardening finish over it.

 

[Stagelab]

He's using it as a Dye (or Stain) to enhance the grain of the wood, like I described above. Wiping off the excess, then applying a hardening finish over it.

got it.

do you have any recommendation for the ratio of Transtint+DNA vs Tru oil to use when mixing? I know a tiny amount of Tru oil goes a long way.

When I mixed Transtint with water, I used 5oz water. Assuming the resulting color would be similar with DNA, I’d make my Transtint+DNA mix with 5oz DNA. I wrote down how many drops of each color Transtint I used in water, and I’d add the same number to DNA. So just over 5oz total liquid. Just not sure how much Tru oil to add next.

 

[MovinTarget]

Is this the kind of sealer you’re referring to?

1 qt Minwax 65700 Clear Sanding Sealer Water-Based https://a.co/d/2OMakSz

there are many ways to seal the grain. *IF* you are familiar with epoxy applications, you can seal with a fast drying epoxy. Most of them are crystal clear when applied and grain will pop. You want to do a SUPER THIN COAT because sand epoxy sucks and you don't want to do it more than you have to.

... but if you haven't used it before, I'd recommend getting really familiar with it before using...

Fun fact, don't mix it in a plastic cup unless you want to see it melt from the exotherm

 

[MovinTarget]

Bruce brings up a good point and we are getting away from your desired effect: Natural wood feel but tinted.

Sealing the wood will not get you thing... I'm starting to wonder what will...

 

[SulzerType2]

Why would you need a sanding sealer?

I suggested up-thread that a sealer coat of lacquer would stop end grain from excessively taking in dye. This is a common cause of uneven dye uptake in maple.

 

[SulzerType2]

if I’m using tru oil that I tint with Transtint or Mixol, which sanding sealer is compatible?

Probably untinted tru-oil, using the sand-in slurry method? Tru-oil accentuates any figuring in the wood and while it builds as a finish it still feels natural. It isn't a product that readily mimics an aged nitro finish, beyond imparting an amber tone on a maple neck.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I’ve concocted a mix of 4 Transtint dyes in water and obtained a color I like for my Mustang back of neck restoration project. Color is very close to the original aged color of the headstock. But on my scrap, I’m getting blotchy results.

I tried a homegrown prestain before applying the dye on my scrap:
- applied water to the bare wood and then sanded at 180 and 280 to smoothen the raised grain
- Also tried the same steps with black tea instead of water.

Still getting blotchy results.

side note: the grain in my scrap is pretty different from my bass neck. Best I could find among Home Depot’s maple lumber supply.

I know maple is tough to dye and blotchy results are common. Any tips?

Would Minwax water based prestain conditioner help? I’m not sure if prestain is good to use before applying a dye.

What about applying an aerosol sanding sealer before the dye?

Would the color of the dye be lighter if I use a sealer? I guess I’d prefer less blotchiness even if it meant the color was a bit lighter than I’m aiming for.

as for a finish, I’m going for an EBMM look and feel so will wipe on tru oil, then wipe off 20-30 sec layer, buff, then repeat once, maybe twice. After that, I’ll apply a coat of gun wax, then buff. Not exactly a true finish. I like the natural feel of EBMMs. This video sums it up

Don't use water. Use alcohol. The water is probably causing the blotchiness.

Sand the wood. Stain the wood. Simple.

 

[Stagelab]

Don't use water. Use alcohol. The water is probably causing the blotchiness.

Sand the wood. Stain the wood. Simple.

I’ll test out a dye and DNA mix. Others had said they preferred water for wipe on since alcohol dries too fast to allow time to correct anything. Everyone said DNA was ideal for spraying.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I’ll test out a dye and DNA mix. Others had said they preferred water for wipe on since alcohol dries too fast to allow time to correct anything. Everyone said DNA was ideal for spraying.

Well, they're dumb.

If you were spraying it on, you would want it to stay wet, not dry fast. There's a whole lot more material on the substrate when you spray it, as compared to wiping. But...

You want it to dry fast. You don't want water in your wood. You want the material to dry, and the moisture to escape, so you can continue with your project.

I do this all the time dude. I've never had a blotchy result. Not once.

 

[Stagelab]

Well, they're dumb.

If you were sraying it on, you would want it to stay wet, not dry fast. There's a whole lot more material on the substrate when you spray it, as compared to wiping. But...

You want it to dry fast. You don't want water in your wood. You want the material to dry, and the moisture to escape, so you can continue with your project.

I do this all the time dude. I've never had a blotchy result. Not once.

I mixed my transtint dyes with DNA and applied it to my scrap—sanded it first working up to 220. Dried almost instantly. Unfortunately, super blotchy results.

I also tried mixing some transtint into Tru oil. Mixed it for a few minutes. The dye looked well mixed into the oil. Applied it to scrap. Also very blotchy results.

Of all my tests, the best, surprisingly, is when I applied a very thin coat of tru oil first, then applied my transtint+water mix on top. Some guys on another forum told me this would be a bust since oil and water don't mix. They said the dye would bead and wipe off to the touch. I didn't see any beads and the color remains after wiping the area with cloth and my hands.

The only thing with this approach is, the color I got was a bit more yellowish than when I applied the same transtint+water mix directly to the maple. I would need to add some more reddish brown dye to get the color I want. I'll try this tomorrow and see how it looks. Then apply a couple thin coats of tru oil on top, and see how that looks.

Question is, if I do tru oil first and then the dye on top followed by more tru oil on my bass neck, will the results be similar to my scrap? Not sure, especially cause my neck's grain is different and on the heel and area where the neck meets the headstock there are angles that will likely lead to a higher concentration of dye ie blotchiness.

Three other options I see:
- get powder dyes and try mixing them with tru oil - not thrilled about buying more product especially when it could also be a bust
- skip the dyes and just apply many layers of tru oil - not thrilled since the feel of the neck wouldn't be natural, which is what I'm after
- invest in a spray gun and spray transtint on the wood - expensive, and concerned with no spray experience I'll screw it up

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Why does Stew Mac advertise its version of Transtint with this video where he applies it directly to wood?



I’ll try mixing Transtint with DNA and then mixing that into Tru Oil.

Oil isn't clear. It's yellow. We'll, it's amber.


Yeah, I don't know what that guy's talking about. It stains the wood. It penetrates, and dyes inside the wood. It's an invasive product. Same as the oil you're using as the finish. Same as any stain. Though, it doesn't penetrate as far as an oil stain. It's still not paint. It goes inside the wood. Invasive material. Once dry, it does not wipe off. You might get a little bit on your rag while applying the finish, but you do with anything. Don't worry about it.

Just sand it, stain it, and oil it. Done.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I mixed my transtint dyes with DNA and applied it to my scrap—sanded it first working up to 220. Dried almost instantly. Unfortunately, super blotchy results.

I also tried mixing some transtint into Tru oil. Mixed it for a few minutes. The dye looked well mixed into the oil. Applied it to scrap. Also very blotchy results.

Of all my tests, the best, surprisingly, is when I applied a very thin coat of tru oil first, then applied my transtint+water mix on top. Some guys on another forum told me this would be a bust since oil and water don't mix. They said the dye would bead and wipe off to the touch. I didn't see any beads and the color remains after wiping the area with cloth and my hands.

The only thing with this approach is, the color I got was a bit more yellowish than when I applied the same transtint+water mix directly to the maple. I would need to add some more reddish brown dye to get the color I want. I'll try this tomorrow and see how it looks. Then apply a couple thin coats of tru oil on top, and see how that looks.

Question is, if I do tru oil first and then the dye on top followed by more tru oil on my bass neck, will the results be similar to my scrap? Not sure, especially cause my neck's grain is different and on the heel and area where the neck meets the headstock there are angles that will likely lead to a higher concentration of dye ie blotchiness.

Three other options I see:
- get powder dyes and try mixing them with tru oil - not thrilled about buying more product especially when it could also be a bust
- skip the dyes and just apply many layers of tru oil - not thrilled since the feel of the neck wouldn't be natural, which is what I'm after
- invest in a spray gun and spray transtint on the wood - expensive, and concerned with no spray experience I'll screw it up

Well, I don't know what to tell you then.

But, if you hit it with oil first, you won't be able to dye it. The wood will be sealed.

How about some pictures?

 

[Stagelab]

Well, I don't know what to tell you then.

But, if you hit it with oil first, you won't be able to dye it. The wood will be sealed.

How about some pictures?

here’s a pic. Four tests. Far left is my dye+water mix directly on the wood. 2nd to left is tru oil first, then dye+water. Third is dye+DNA on wood. Fourth (far right) is dye mixed with tru oil and applied to wood. In this light, far left is the best result, actually. And the color is a great match with my headstock. I don’t have much scrap left which is why my test areas are small.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

here’s a pic. Four tests. Far left is my dye+water mix directly on the wood. 2nd to left is tru oil first, then dye+water. Third is dye+DNA on wood. Fourth (far right) is dye mixed with tru oil and applied to wood. In this light, far left is the best result, actually. And the color is a great match with my headstock. I don’t have much scrap left which is why my test areas are small.

You know, you're never gonna get a good sample from a test that small. But, it looks like your color mix is highly inconsistent as well. If there's four tests there, I can't really see the first spot, the big one on the left looks great. But, you like your first test. Whatever you had going in the first test, run with that. Put it right on your project, and work it in. If you don't like it in the morning, sand it out. But, You'll most likely like it.

 

[Beej]

@Stagelab there are many ways to successfully finish a guitar, and we all have our favourite ways of doing it. In this case, you're trying to match an existing finish, correct? How do your current tests compare against the real thing?

The Erlewine method shown in the video above is also how I would apply an aniline dye directly to the body. Mixed in water and dna and applied directly, but in most cases, I'm not too concerned about how different parts take the colour when it's bright red, for example. In your case, since you're looking to come close to an existing vintage style tinted finish, and colour is relatively important, it would be worth trying a few completely different approaches on test boards and then comparing to your neck to see what may be the best fit.

As mentioned by Bruce, Erlewine is applying that dye directly to the neck face and planning to spray a hard finish over it. To emulate that, I'd probably add in trying a test with the transtints and then spray over them with a satin acrylic automotive lacquer spray bomb. It will be pretty transparent and around as durable as nitro. ( ) Tru-oil will undoubtedly add additional colour to the finish which may or may not enhance the look you're going for.

Watching that video makes me wonder if it was done primarily as a sales pitch for transtint, because I would think the 'proper' way to restore that bass neck would be to match and then spray a tinted lacquer.

 

[Stagelab]

You know, you're never gonna get a good sample from a test that small. But, it looks like your color mix is highly inconsistent as well. If there's four tests there, I can't really see the first spot, the big one on the left looks great. But, you like your first test. Whatever you had going in the first test, run with that. Put it right on your project, and work it in. If you don't like it in the morning, sand it out. But, You'll most likely like it.

Not sure what to do about inconsistency. I stirred the Transtint into the solvent well.

The one you said looks good is the one with tru oil down first. Surprising result.

I’ll use the rest of my scrap for bigger tests. Will top off with tru oil to see what that does to the color.

found one other option: mix Transtint with ethoxylated alcohol and then mix into tru oil. The makers of Transtint sell an oil additive made of this alcohol to increase compatibility with oils.

good pt about being able to sand back if I color the neck and don’t like it.

 

[MonetBass]

I plan to use a colored wood dye on a headstock of a maple neck for a project, and my woodworker brother suggested mixing it with denatured alcohol and testing it on a piece of maple first. This is the dye I used:

VERY concentrated. Just a tiny bit (it's in powder form) was all that was needed. I sanded the wood with 220 then applied the dye with a paper towel, and the color was very consistent, not blotchy. If you're wondering if this would work over a finish, the answer is yes because I got a little on my finished workbench and it dyed it, too.
The original plan was to use Tru Oil over it, but the amber in the oil changed the color too much, so I'm going to use polyurethane instead.

 

[MovinTarget]

I plan to use a colored wood dye on a headstock of a maple neck for a project, and my woodworker brother suggested mixing it with denatured alcohol and testing it on a piece of maple first. This is the dye I used:

VERY concentrated. Just a tiny bit (it's in powder form) was all that was needed. I sanded the wood with 220 then applied the dye with a paper towel, and the color was very consistent, not blotchy. If you're wondering if this would work over a finish, the answer is yes because I got a little on my finished workbench and it dyed it, too.
The original plan was to use Tru Oil over it, but the amber in the oil changed the color too much, so I'm going to use polyurethane instead.

yeah I went on a quest to find "clear TruOil" a while back...

... it was a very short, disappointing quest.

I believe there are other wipe-ons that are clear, but they are not boiled linseed-based and have their own quirks and requirements.

TruOil is great because it is so easy to use. And I'll say it, I LOVE the smell of TruOil!