Double Bass Arco playing issue

[Lionel Albert]

Hi !

I've got a problem, not the bigger one but it's frustrating.
I'm bowing more than I used to do, there is no problem when I'm playing a bass but when I want to play more freely like if I were playing in pizzicato, since the instrument is amplified, I've got a kind of mud and I hear "Mute the strings ! Mute your strings !"
How do you do that ? Should I use a specific EQ to avoid that ?
Acoustically, I haven't got that issue or it can't be heard.

 

[Don Hergert]

That is a piezo (or similar contact pickup) trait, it happens because arco directly exercises the strings and bridge dramatically more than pizz. Use a (air) microphone instead of a piezo.

If you are in a high volume situation and have to use a piezo because of feedback, use a volume-adjustable preamp somewhere handy where you can adjust the volume before you pick up your bow and after you put the bow away. For example, some of us have mounted-preamps where we can easily adjust the volume on-the-fly. Some of us use pedal board volume-adjustable devices for the same purpose.

Having to adjust volume when switching to and from arco / pizz is never 100% handy, but it works if you have to use a piezo.

There are lots and lots of threads here that discuss mic vs piezo advantages and disadvantages.

Best of luck with this -- it's a rabbit hole.

Edit: For transparency: On my DB I have a mounted piezo/preamp system and a mounted (air) mic. I use the piezo/preamp system in higher volume (ie: heavily amplified) situations and I use the mic in sensitive (mostly air-mic) volume situations.

 

[Lionel Albert]

That is a piezo (or similar contact pickup) trait, it happens because arco directly exercises the strings and bridge dramatically more than pizz. Use a (air) microphone instead of a piezo.

If you are in a high volume situation and have to use a piezo because of feedback, use a volume-adjustable preamp somewhere handy where you can adjust the volume before you pick up your bow and after you put the bow away. For example, some of us have mounted-preamps where we can easily adjust the volume on-the-fly. Some of us use pedal board volume-adjustable devices for the same purpose.

Having to adjust volume when switching to and from arco / pizz is never 100% handy, but it works if you have to use a piezo.

There are lots and lots of threads here that discuss mic vs piezo advantages and disadvantages.

Best of luck with this -- it's a rabbit hole.

Edit: For transparency: On my DB I have a mounted piezo/preamp system and a mounted (air) mic. I use the piezo/preamp system in higher volume (ie: heavily amplified) situations and I use the mic in sensitive (mostly air-mic) volume situations.

I will try to deal with the preamp boost when playing in pizzicato (Fishman Platinum Pro EQ) and I will hear what happens but not today.
Thanks !

 

[Wasnex]

I've got a kind of mud and I hear "Mute the strings ! Mute your strings !"

Yes it can be necessary to mute the strings. When playing with an amp, a feedback loop is created that will put energy into the bass's body and strings; so you must control the strings. Speaker placement, room acoustics, volume, bass characteristics, pickup quality, and how the pickup interfaces with the bass are all relevant factors.

If the tone is muddy, the first thing I would try is corrective EQ. The feedback loop is a factor here as well. The more you turn up the amp, the stronger the feedback loop and more corrective EQ is required. This feedback loop excites resonances which degrades the tone. You can control single frequencies that feedback with narrow and deep notches. IME you can use 4-6 notches before you hit the point of diminishing returns. IME, applying appropriate notches tends to make the sound more natural.

In general you have to be more gentle with broadband cuts to avoid gutting your tone. You might apply a broad gentle cut to even out the frequency response or to reduce string pump. String pump is when the sound from the amp excites the strings. As you turn up more and more, at some point you hit a limit where everything pretty much falls apart. If your getting string pump, your probably playing really loud and approach the absolute limit.

 

[fdeck]

I just posted a recording of some arco soloing in Chris's "share your recording" thread. It was during my band's regular monthly gig at a relatively small club.

I wasn't doing anything special: It's a carved bass with Full Circle pickup, my own preamp, into a passive DI box and then my GK MB200 amp and homemade 8" speaker. My EQ settings make the amp basically flat.

One issue could just be volume. How much amplification are you using? Perhaps a "secret" of my setup is that, with the 8" speaker and small amplifier, it can never be super loud. So I'm not battling feedback. Can you let go of your strings without it feeding back?

Of course this could just be luck on my part. Every bass is different in terms of how it behaves under amplification. But I find that I don't need to do anything special in order to have decent balance going back between pizz and arco. That's important for me because I do more than half of my soloing with the bow.

 

[Lionel Albert]

I just posted a recording of some arco soloing in Chris's "share your recording" thread. It was during my band's regular monthly gig at a relatively small club.

I wasn't doing anything special: It's a carved bass with Full Circle pickup, my own preamp, into a passive DI box and then my GK MB200 amp and homemade 8" speaker. My EQ settings make the amp basically flat.

One issue could just be volume. How much amplification are you using? Perhaps a "secret" of my setup is that, with the 8" speaker and small amplifier, it can never be super loud. So I'm not battling feedback. Can you let go of your strings without it feeding back?

Of course this could just be luck on my part. Every bass is different in terms of how it behaves under amplification. But I find that I don't need to do anything special in order to have decent balance going back between pizz and arco. That's important for me because I do more than half of my soloing with the bow.

In a trio context, since it's not an acoustic piano, the sound is very loud. I've got to deal with a "weird" EQ setting to avoid feedback and it's true that when I'm not touching the strings, feedback is coming, it's also depends where I am.
I use a QSC CP8 with a Fishman Platinum Pro EQ.
Arco playing is huge and deep, it's great for intros and outros but it's a nightmare if I want to play a kind of solo.
I've never tried so much with the quartet/quintet since it's less experimental, I don't need to play loud because it's an acoustic piano, there has never been feedback. The amp is more a help than something essential, kind of spacialization.
I played arco in another configuration but it was in churches and a cathedral, no problem at all (very simple stuff). My goal was to play the bass with a real pipe organ to accompany a lyrical singer.
I will try on Friday with the trio again and again.

 

[AGCurry]

The inconvenient truth is that most piezo pickups don't do well with arco. (The Copperhead is the best I have found.)

When playing unamplified, sympathetic string excitations are usually desirable, so there's little pedagogical advice given for string muting... except for the sordino, the bridge mute. You might try one; it's a cheap experiment. The only drawback is the time it takes to apply/detach it.

 

[turf3]

The inconvenient truth is that most piezo pickups don't do well with arco. (The Copperhead is the best I have found.)

When playing unamplified, sympathetic string excitations are usually desirable, so there's little pedagogical advice given for string muting... except for the sordino, the bridge mute. You might try one; it's a cheap experiment. The only drawback is the time it takes to apply/detach it.

Seems like the wire type that stays there all the time would just take a few seconds to slide up. Do it with your hand on the way down to grab the bow.

(disclosure: the only mute I have is the giant rubber one and that's not for performance.(

 

[AGCurry]

Seems like the wire type that stays there all the time would just take a few seconds to slide up. Do it with your hand on the way down to grab the bow.

(disclosure: the only mute I have is the giant rubber one and that's not for performance.(

I use the Tourte mute. It's rubber, but not giant. Slides up and down on the afterlengths of the middle strings, takes about two seconds to attach and one second to detach.

 

[Lionel Albert]

Yes, I should try one day but I would like to combine arco and pizzicato playing.
Thanks for your answers, my issue might be bigger than yours since my arco playing is... not so bad but definitely not so good.
That's obvious.

 

[fdeck]

In a trio context, since it's not an acoustic piano, the sound is very loud. I've got to deal with a "weird" EQ setting to avoid feedback and it's true that when I'm not touching the strings, feedback is coming, it's also depends where I am.

That's a difficult situation. For me, managing super loud gigs turns it into a matter of survival rather than musicality. I often think that I'd be much better off with my electric bass in those situations, but I'm out of practice on it. Also, I did play louder gigs when I was younger, but I had a magnetic pickup on my bass. It meant I could crank things way up without feedback, but it would also not reproduce arco at all.

 

[sean_on_bass]

maybe try turning the amp down a little bit so that the volume increase isn't so drastic when switching to arco. you can also experiment with the various variables of bowing to get a good sound but at a quieter volume, so working on dynamics.

 

[Lionel Albert]

Hi !

Yesterday I saw someone for my arco playing. It was not about amplification but only about technique. He told me about things I've never seen here or on YouTube.

 

[Co.]

Hi !

Yesterday I saw someone for my arco playing. It was not about amplification but only about technique. He told me about things I've never seen here or on YouTube.

Sounds interesting. Could you elaborate on that?

 

[Lionel Albert]

Sounds interesting. Could you elaborate on that?

More weight and less bow on low strings and the opposite on high strings.
Slow attack is good.
That explains why bowing is something.

Another thing I noticed.
I tried to do something he asked me to do and I couldn't do it.
I thought that a lot of things were in the shoulder with German bow but he said the arm had to be folded a bit for flexibility, I mean the arm doesn't have to be straight all the time when bowing.
I couldn't do it and now I understand why.
The nut is a bit over my eyebrow, I'm short (169 cm without shoes I think), in order to bow at the right place my arm is dramatically always straight.
I don't feel like buying a French bow since I don't really bow but I can put the instrument higher with the endpin a bit more out.
Little by little, pics about Simandl make sense.
Let me explain, when I'm playing in half-position, I try my left forearm to be more or less parallel to the floor (Ron Carter teaching I guess) but the other arm (the bowing arm) is completely straight.
I have to find a compromise. It doesn't bother in fact since I tend to use more endpin length now.
I can compensate a bit by putting the bass more "oblique" and that the way a lot of classical players do, I think I do it naturally.

 

[Papageno]

That's not primarily an amplification issue. A good bass will produce tons of sympathetic resonnances from the unplayed open strings, when played with the bow. Of course this is greatly dependent on the key in which you are playing: if you are playing a tuned in Ab minor, you will get less sympathetic resonnance than when playing a tune in E, A or D....

So you must mute the strings. Sunce your right hand is holding the bow, you need to mute with the unused fingers of the left hand.