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Double Bass arco sweet spot

dovo

Guest
Jul 7, 2012
3
0
Say a self-instructed French-bow person notices
that there is an arco sweet spot
at the 4th overtone (an octave and a 10th).
For an open string, that spot is near the end of the fingerboard,
but for notes up the string, it moves closer to the bridge,
so that at the octave it is about halfway between the fingerboard and bridge,
and so on,

each fingered position having a unique best bowing spot.

It is so easy to pull a big sound at that overtone-spot
that the self-instructed person decides to try
to bow EVERY note at that note's 4th-overtone sweet spot.

The bow is too massive to relocate entirely, at speed,
but if the bow be PIVOTED around its center of balance,
one seems to be able to catch the sweet spot for just about every note.

The bow hand is very loose, hardly gripping the bow at all,
constantly moving up and down (toward the endpin, toward the scroll),
while at the same time bowing back and forth,
pulling way up (toward the shoulder)
to catch an open-string-sweet-spot on the E-string
or a high note on the G-string,
pushing down (toward the feet)
to make a thumb-position figure on the A-string
or catch a low note on the G-string.
The bow constantly pivoting, rather than always parallel to the bridge,
the bow-hand describing circles and arcs in the air.

And then what if the self-instructed person (who sits),
finding it uncomfortable to bend way over to bow the sweet spot for thumb positions,
discovers that one can slide the bow SIDEWAYS (diagonally across the hair),
the bow held tip-low (player sitting up straight),
so as one "down-bows" (a bow-pull toward the right shoulder)
the bow also slides across the string to the right
and as one "up-bows" (a bow-push toward the left foot)
the bow is also slid sideways to the left.
The contact point remains at the sweet spot on the string
even as the bow is held and drawn at an angle to the string,
cuz the bow is simultaneously slid sideways.

(It feels like scratching a cat with a stick or stirring soup.)

To catch a sweet-spot in a tight figure,
one can even tip/twist the bow,
catching the high note with the right side of the hair
and a second lower with the left side of the hair.

For instance, to bow a "turn" (ornament),
the bow hand makes a little circle in the air
in the plane of the string
(to pivot the bow)
while simultaneously tipping the bow
from right-side-hair to left-side-hair and back.

I am certain the "correct" bow technique isn't like this at all,
but, rather, would recommend that the bow be drawn
in some compromise position
somewhere between the fingerboard and the bridge,
(always parallel to the bridge),
using a lot of weight (rather than exact placement)
to get the string to sound big.

But I must say, the technique I have described is very seductive,
because it gives such a fine sound with so little weight/effort
(the hand, the arm, the shoulder completely loose and relaxed).

But, of course, the movement of the bow-hand is complex.

Has anyone followed the path I have described,
to the point where it becomes instinctive? Is it good?
Or do I walk this path alone (and will end up in a ditch)?
 
I will see what others say before further comment. In the meantime I refer you to a thread called Bowing Stuff started by menuluv on October 23, 2009 (page 27 in the archives). I am sure there are other threads if you are prepared to trawl.

Cheers,DP
 
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Well, prepare for some long-winded answers, but here's the gist of it. GENERALLY speaking, the bow works best when drawn perpendicular to the string. Other things might work, but on closer examination, I think you'll find those things don't sound as good, and are not as efficient. You are correct that the bow is constantly moving up and down, bridge to FB, to achieve optimal sounding points, but it should remain more or less straight. There's some opinion that attacks that are not perpendicular work better than those that are. I've never really studied why that would be, but it seems to work for some.

The bow is NOT too massive to reposition. You will eventually learn to do that.

If you can't reach certain parts of the string because you are sitting, you might want to re-examine sitting or the way you sit. Having said that, though, the bass is huge and not everyone is big enough to play with a perfectly straight bow on every note. You strive for it, practice it, and then stop worrying about it and go play. How it sounds is more important than how it looks.
 
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One conventional wisdom is to draw the bow in each direction at 90 degrees to the string in a straight line for best tone. Some people say that this is when the bow moves parallel to the top of the bridge. This is true for the two middle strings however I maintain that this is incorrect for the G and E strings because of the strings angling back and the curvature of the bridge. On most basses the bow is 90 degrees to the G string when resting about 6 inches above the bridge and pointing slightly "downhill" through the middle of the "C" bout. Similarly, on the E string the heel of the bow drops to point the bow "uphill" from beside your leg. Rolling the bow across strings at 90 degrees to each is done by keeping your right shoulder relaxed and crossing with a long arm so that the "plane" of the RH movement is at 90 degrees to the string lengthwise. not crosswise like the drawing of sound with the bow

Another conventional wisdom is that there is a ratio between the distance from the bridge to the bow contact point and the length of the vibrating string that forms the note. 6 inches from the bridge will give a ratio of about 1 to 7 when playing in Half or First Position. I generally find that bowing here gives me best control over note starts and stop, articulation, projection and tone. I maintain this approximate ratio as I progressively lengthen and shorten the vibrating string so that in basic thumb position I will bow about 3 inches from the bridge, etc. I can vary the ratio between 1 : 7 and 1 : 10 (4 inches) if I adjust the other two variables, bow weight and bow speed/length.

I am sure many others here have wondered how the Viennese players manage to draw such a huge sound with their bows apparently at such a different angle to the strings. If someone watching has been taught this way could they please explain. Tom Martin once explained to me that this is possible if the ENERGY is directed across at 90 degrees as the angled bow's contact point slides up and down the string. He used this as a trick to move the contact point higher or lower in preparation for a big change of position, eg jumping into or out of thumb position. If you attempt to draw the bow back and forth at this different angle you introduce a longitudinal distortion into the shape of the vibrating string and wreck the tone.

Another thought is that if you bow or pizz at a harmonic point then that note will disappear from the sound mix of fundamental plus overtones. Moving or choosing the contact point is one possibility for creating a palette of diffent sounds to express the music.

dovo, it sounds as though your chosen contact point is where I would describe as playing "sul tasto" (over the fingerboard). Here you would have to move the bow faster and still risk making a softer tone with less projection. I try and stay away from this area at all times on the G string because it is too easy to collapse the vibrations and sound, and yet I will come up towards this area when attempting fast passages on the E string because it is more flexible.

I will try out your ideas above before further comment.

Cheers, DP
 
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Somewhat drunk, I watch Edgar Meyer playing Bach.
He is bowing at the FIRST overtone
(in octave thumb position, around the end of the fingerboard).
He doesn't seem to be working very hard.

So, I try it.
The "sweet spot" for thumb-one-two-three
is about 3/4 inch wide,
so this is a subtle art.
On my plywood bass, with my fiberglass bow,
the sound is, yet, fuzzy.
But, on the other hand,
I can reach it, in sitting position.

Bow hand utterly relaxed,
hardly holding the bow at all.
It feels nice,
but the exact placement of the bow is so specific!

Once you know, you can't go back.
 
I agree with Dovo. Only, instead of changing at each (Simandl) position, I use the six Rabbath positions. OK, we will not get involved in a discussion on shifting and pivoting here, but I suggest that one views the six Rabbath positions as six zones of the fingerboard. (For who is not familiar with it: the first Rabbath position centers around the notes to be played with the first finger on the note 'a' on the G-string, the second position with the first finger on 'c', the third position with the first finger on 'd', the fourth position with the thumb on the octave 'g', the fifth position with the thumb on 'd' and the sixth position with the thumb on the 'g' nearly to the end of the fingerboard.)
Now, those six zones of LH fingering make for six bow placement positions on the string, each at the place of a natural harmonic on the string. The first harmonic beyond the 'g' at the end of the fingerboard (harmonic b) is for the 'zero position' of an open string, the following harmonic (d) is for the notes to be played in the 1st zone, the next harmonic (f) is for the second zone, etc.
These are certainly the sweet spots for arco that make for a clear sound, without any pressing or forced grip.

My idea is, that a similar approach applies to (jazz) pizzicato, but then starting om some earlier knots/harmonic places of the string. Again with the example of the G-string: first zone notes while plucking with your RH finger on the place of the harmonic 'g' near the end of the fingerboard, second zone notes while plucking at the place of the harmonic 'b', third zone notes plucking at the place of the harmonic 'd', etc.
 
There is no sweet spot. Stating something like that implies, that there is one ideal tone color with one corresponding ideal arco position. This not true. There are many, many different tone colors possible on the bass, with corresponding bow placement, weight, speed, angle. And then there's also dynamics, articulations, ....
Nothing of that is static. One "perfect" tone color, that never changes is the most boring thing on earth.
Don't let such ideas fool your ears.
 
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'...There is no sweet spot. Stating something like that implies, that there is one ideal tone color with one corresponding ideal arco position...'

I think you have a wrong idea of what a 'sweet spot' should be. Indeed, there is no single spot on the string that produces one ideal tone color, nor world peace, perfect health, and fine weather. But there are spots on the string where you can be pretty sure of a good, bright sound, with easy response and bowing. That spot depends on the effective length of the string, or, in other words, depends on the left hand position. Once having found such sweet spots as starting-point, it is up to you as interpreter to vary, by placing more or less weight, speed, using several parts of the bow, or play more sul tasto or sul ponticello. For example, the sound of harmonics benifits from a bit more speed and a bow placement a bit more sul ponticello. But one needs a starting-point, and that is given with the sweet spots.

Reduced to its basics, a 'sweet spot' expresses that the idea that, in order to obtain a certain tone colour, I am not dependent upon the conditions of my room or my inner feelings, but I can rely upon certain spots at the string. The other conditions (like my room and my inner feelings) support the tone color that is created at such a spot.
These spots cannot be defined by measuring inches from the bridge, for we have various lengths of basses and fingerboards. So it can only be defined in relation to the harmonic knots that each string has.