Are all tweeters created equal?

[Inconnu]

Hello there!

The thread title is a semi-joke… like everything, I’m sure quality tweeters exist as well as bad ones.

What I’m really wondering is if there presence ends up doing the same thing generally.

I had tweeters in 2 combo amps. In both cases, I observed the following things:
- Distortion (overdrive or fuzz and everything in between) : always an unpleasant (to me) harsh high end buzzing added in top of the sound.
- The general feeling of having the high end hovering around the sound rather than being tightly coupled with the rest of the frequencies.
- When the tweeter is turned off, it felt like highs where rather gone.

So, my question is: should I expect that from all tweeter loaded cabs and combos?

I’m looking at amps right now and lots of interesting combos have tweeters and, well I want to avoid deceptions!

 

[J-Bass RMR]

How old & what type are your combos?

IME/IMO - I don't believe it's an issue with any modern/well-designed cabinet - at least I've not had that issue w/my current cabs - all acquired within in the last 8 years ; Aguilar, Genzler, and Ampeg.

I need that extra extension beyond 3k-4k to hear myself better - that's it. It's just how my ears work.
The attenuators work well; I rarely have mine over 3-4, and often use an LP to find t my "sweet spot". It might seem counter-intuitive, but it works for me.

Much different than the days with i.e. the Fostex tweet in the SWR Cabs. (it still makes me grimace when I think about it)

 

[agedhorse]

Tweeters can be VERY different, and even how they are designed into a product along with the specific woofer can make a big difference.

 

[Wasnex]

What I’m really wondering is if there presence ends up doing the same thing generally.

1. - Distortion (overdrive or fuzz and everything in between) : always an unpleasant (to me) harsh high end buzzing added in top of the sound. This can vary with the quality of the effect, how the effect is adjusted, quality of the tweeter, and how the tweeter is implemented. The voicing of the amp and way it is adjusted also matters.
2. - The general feeling of having the high end hovering around the sound rather than being tightly coupled with the rest of the frequencies. This suggests the tweeter implementation is not particularly good. AFAIK, with bass cabs there is often a bit of a dead zone between where the woofer cuts off and where the tweeter turns on. This is even more apparent off axis, where the woofer's HF dispersion gets narrow/beamy.
3. - When the tweeter is turned off, it felt like highs where rather gone. Many bass cabs run the woofers full range and apply an HPF to the tweeter. If turning the tweeter off causes the sound to be become overly dark, it's due to the woofer's characteristics, or possibly how you have the cab is aimed. Try tilting back the cab to aim at your ears.

A couple of my own observations:

The last cabs I used professionally were Eden David Series. These were very good cabs, but I struggled with the way they spoke in the range where the tweeters turn on (about 3.5kHz). The tweeters did integrate well with the woofers and they seemed to add sort of a gritty texture that I didn't like. I think part of the undesired texture is inherent to the Eden tweeters. I think phase errors between the woofers and tweeters was cause the texture to be more audible. Basically the woofer and tweeter were sort of fighting against each other in the high mids. I dialed back the tweeters until the sound relaxed a bit.

My GK 700RB combo crosses the tweeter over at 5kHz. This sounds quite different to a 3.5kHz cross. Some of the old Mesa PowerHouse cabs had both an attenuator and a switch to change the frequency where the tweeter was brought in.

I have a bunch of different guitar amps and cabs. If I adjust my pedals to sound good through a Fender Showman Reverb pushing a pair of JBL E120s, they won't sound great through a Marshall pushing Greenbacks. Both the EQ and distortion pedals typically need to be adjusted when I switch rigs. No different than tweeter VS no tweeter. All of my dirt but can be adjusted to sound good through PA cabs. This is IMHO and YMMV. You might think they sound awful through PA cabs.

 

[HolmeBass]

You might want to try a 3-way cabinet, like a fEARful.

That design gives you a pistononic woofer to really dish the lows, but it tops out around 1kHz.

A 6 or 6.5 inch mid-range driver handles from 1k to 5k. The tweeter takes over at 5k, but for a lot of styles is not needed. 5kHz can be plenty of high end for rock and reggae and folk, depending on your personal taste.

 

[DJ Bebop]

How old & what type are your combos?

IME/IMO - I don't believe it's an issue with any modern/well-designed cabinet - at least I've not had that issue w/my current cabs - all acquired within in the last 8 years ; Aguilar, Genzler, and Ampeg.

I need that extra extension beyond 3k-4k to hear myself better - that's it. It's just how my ears work.
The attenuators work well; I rarely have mine over 3-4, and often use an LP to find t my "sweet spot". It might seem counter-intuitive, but it works for me.

Much different than the days with i.e. the Fostex tweet in the SWR Cabs. (it still makes me grimace when I think about it)

I thought Aguilar used Fostex horns?
It could be a crossover point difference between the SWR vs the Aguilar.
Maybe not idk

 

[MaxSpinrun]

A good solution may be the Genzler BA series cabs. They use 3 inch cone drivers that handle mid and high frequencies. Very smooth and unobtrusive. I love my BA-15 3

 

[J-Bass RMR]

I thought Aguilar used Fostex horns?
It could be a crossover point difference between the SWR vs the Aguilar.
Maybe not idk

Could be.
It would be more accurate to say - rather than brand - that is was the type of horn used, and the design.
(and how it was utilized by the player*)
The SWR design was conceived almost 40 years ago - cabinet design and tweeter implementation, has come a long way.

*Admittedly, I went a little "nuts" with the tweeter when I 1st got my SWR Cabinet - all those years ago.
That's as much a part of the reason why I cringe when I think back.... Fortunately, that chapter of "max tweet" only lasted a few years....

Don Kleiwer / Winslow Industries - who manufactured crossovers for some of the top brands in the industry - lived across the street from my wife's parents. He modified my original SWR crossover for me, so that "dome-light" fuse wouldn't blow so easily.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Could be.
It would be more accurate to say - rather than brand - that is was the type of horn used, and the design.
(and how it was utilized by the player*)
The SWR design was conceived almost 40 years ago - cabinet design and tweeter implementation, has come a long way.

*Admittedly, I went a little "nuts" with the tweeter when I 1st got my SWR Cabinet - all those years ago.
That's as much a part of the reason why I cringe when I think back.... Fortunately, that chapter of "max tweet" only lasted a few years....

Don Kleiwer / Winslow Industries - who manufactured crossovers for some of the top brands in the industry - lived across the street from my wife's parents. He modified my original SWR crossover for me, so that "dome-light" fuse wouldn't blow so easily.

I know huh?

I have an old Aguilar GS 112 that uses what they call a custom phenolic tweeter with an integral phase plug. The sound could be a little high up there running it full on. I run mine ‘flat’ at 12:00.

I have a newer Mesa Subway 115. I find the horn and crossover network in that a lot smoother to the point I can run it full on if I want to without the harshness of other horns or tweeters. The full range of it seems to be useful no matter where I set the L pad. They have come a long way.

 

[WW2]

I know huh?

I have an old Aguilar GS 112 that uses what they call a custom phenolic tweeter with an integral phase plug. The sound could be a little high up there running it full on. I run mine ‘flat’ at 12:00.

I have a newer Mesa Subway 115. I find the horn and crossover network in that a lot smoother to the point I can run it full on if I want to without the harshness of other horns or tweeters. The full range of it seems to be useful no matter where I set the L pad. They have come a long way.

Totally agree about the Mesa tweeters..went from a Aguilar SL410x to a Subway 4x10..I like alot of zing. The Mesa tweeter is much more subtle and layed back, in fact, I was wondering if it was even working in the beginning. The Mesa cabinet is much more powerful but still prefer the Aguilar tweeter.....

 

[agedhorse]

Totally agree about the Mesa tweeters..went from a Aguilar SL410x to a Subway 4x10..I like alot of zing. The Mesa tweeter is much more subtle and layed back, in fact, I was wondering if it was even working in the beginning. The Mesa cabinet is much more powerful but still prefer the Aguilar tweeter.....

This was a definite design decision.

 

[Blues Bass 2]

I think it's mostly the crossover design that makes the difference of whether a tweeter is harsh or not . SWR , Carvin , Peavey and even Eden had some sort of Fostex style of tweeter . The Eden had a cast bell but used the same diaphram as far as I know . They all sounded a little different with the Eden sounding the smoothest to me .

 

[DJ Bebop]

This was a definite design decision.

And for me, a good one

 

[agedhorse]

I think it's mostly the crossover design that makes the difference of whether a tweeter is harsh or not . SWR , Carvin , Peavey and even Eden had some sort of Fostex style of tweeter . The Eden had a cast bell but used the same diaphram as far as I know . They all sounded a little different with the Eden sounding the smoothest to me .

It's a combination of the horn design, the crossover AND the LF driver's mid extension (how much and how smooth). It's not any single element.