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Are we headed towards a new dark ages?

No other species has ever been in the position where it could knowingly bring about its own extinction. Hopefully we will pass this test. If there are other intelligent creatures out there in the Universe, I'd like to know how they dealt with these challenges, along with how many survived and how they did so...
There are several known cases of species that changed their environment enough to lead to their own extinction.
The most notorious are cyanobacteria, that processed the oxygen in the air you currently breath from oceans. Eventually there was too much oxygen in the air for them to survive and they went extinct.

There is still no known life out of Earth so we can only take it as an example. Amongst the billions of species that ever roamed the planet, only one chose intelligence as a mean of survival and succeeded at it.
Intelligence is an incident that could or not happen in any biosphere. Assuming that it's a logical development or that the way we evolved is superior to say, earthworms that actually contribute to enhance soils and have by far the most biomass of all animals on Earth is pretentious and likely a mistake.
 
A week or so out in the wilderness without the modern conviences we take for granted will give you a bit of perspective, not to mention appreciation for said conveniences.
It does, what I missed most was hot showers with real soap. Washing in a very cold stream with bio-degradable soap is not the same.
I didn't miss the noise and commotion. It is nice to listen the wind whistle through the trees under a full moon.
 
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I used to do this when I was much younger.
My only real modern items were my tent and polar sleeping bag.
Otherwise I heated water with stones to wash myself (with ashes, no soap), set traps for rabbits, collected berries and stuff.
It was fun, especially since nobody had any idea where I was.
 
It's been a fairly long time since I was way out in the woods on my own. Two things stop it from happening these days - time and a balky back that doesn't do well sleeping on rocks and twigs and the like. Oh, well. I won't survive Armageddon, most likely.

The Romans and later the builders of Venice deforested the Italian peninsula. That caused some local changes in climate, although not catastrophic by comparison to what seems to be imminent now. Yeast drowns in it's own excrement - alcohol - to our great benefit. That's another organism that wipes out its ecosystem and kills itself. Good thing, too. I like beer.
 
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I used to do this when I was much younger.
My only real modern items were my tent and polar sleeping bag.
Otherwise I heated water with stones to wash myself (with ashes, no soap), set traps for rabbits, collected berries and stuff.
It was fun, especially since nobody had any idea where I was.
You could have made soap from the ashes and rabbit fat. With just ashes, you were turning yourself into soap. Just saying. ;)
 
The actual Dark Ages were caused by a collapse of the Western Roman Empire
Well put! I have said for the last decade or so that the United States Of America is in the 'bread and circus' stage of devolution. My grandmother thought that Benny Goodman's "jungle music" was the end of the world. My mom asked me to take down my Jimi Hendrix poster because the Irish relatives were coming to visit... (and I did, dammit)...These daze it's Lady Gaga and Jon Stewart VS Fox Nuze... "Bread And Circus"... In my heart I worry for my grand daughters...just as my grandmother worried for me...
 
There are several known cases of species that changed their environment enough to lead to their own extinction.
The most notorious are cyanobacteria, that processed the oxygen in the air you currently breath from oceans. Eventually there was too much oxygen in the air for them to survive and they went extinct.

There is still no known life out of Earth so we can only take it as an example. Amongst the billions of species that ever roamed the planet, only one chose intelligence as a mean of survival and succeeded at it.
Intelligence is an incident that could or not happen in any biosphere. Assuming that it's a logical development or that the way we evolved is superior to say, earthworms that actually contribute to enhance soils and have by far the most biomass of all animals on Earth is pretentious and likely a mistake.

The key word is 'knowingly'. Cyanobacteria did not knowingly alter its ecosystem. Curiously, a significant number of humans deny that we are causing any problems with the ecosystem which supports us... perhaps they are acting like bacteria? ;)

I don't think that biology claims that evolution has any goal in mind, or that it would intentionally "choose" the survival of an intelligent ape. Such notions are not scientific. I am curious to know, however, if we would make good fertilizer....
 
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Oddly, Stewart actually provides more credible news information than many of the alternatives.... though it is somewhat worrying how millions are apparently pacified with "infotainment".

It's really disheartening when channels that purport to be scientific--the History Channel, the Discovery channel--run shows like Ancient Aliens or Finding Bigfoot or similar shows that have absolutely no scientific or historical basis. And why is the Weather Channel showing reality shows on Prospectors? How about some actual shows on WEATHER?

Then we have folks today (sadly, some of them are in positions of power) that must've learned their physics from watching Roadrunner cartoons.
 
Good lord. No no no.

First of all, for the umpteenth time, no professional historian with a doctorate specializing in the early Middle Ages (ahem) calls it "the Dark Ages" any more. That's a phrase that was coined by 18th century philosophes to condemn what they didn't like about their own society (blame the bad stuff on the "dark ages") and which gets used by book publishers and the so-called "history channel" to make money because it sounds so dramatic. Whenever you see it used, a big neon sign should go up saying "THIS PERSON HAS NO IDEA WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT."

As far as "free inquiry" goes: There was a decline in literacy and education following the breakup of the Roman Empire in its former western provinces. No doubt about that, though recent research would indicate it wasn't as catastrophic a decline as used to be made out. There was no more civilian bureaucracy, therefore a lot fewer careers requiring literacy, therefore less money for teachers and schools. How many modern college students would be there if there were no jobs waiting for them? Education continued through private tutoring in aristocratic families, who continued writing poetry and sending letters to each other, and in the Christian Church, that needed literate priests and bishops. Nobody suppressed anything, it's just that those were the "last men standing," so to speak.

It's also important, by the way, to make sure you're comparing apples to apples. How many philosophers and poets of the Roman Empire had come from Britain? None. How many from Gaul, or Spain? Maybe a couple. The intellectual powerhouses of the Roman Empire had been mostly in the East - Egypt, Greece, Asia Minor - and to a lesser extent Italy and North Africa: and those areas continued to be.

With Charlemagne's empire (768-814 and after under his heirs) you see renewed investment in basic education, opening new church schools (but also open to some non-churchmen), and the copying of books, just to make them available. With the transition from the early Middle Ages (500-1000) to the high Middle Ages (1000-1300) these schools snowball into a new intellectual/educational culture called Scholasticism. There was a new prosperity after 1000 and new opportunities in church and secular administrations for literate clerks, lawyers, and judges, so the economic incentive came back for education. Also, new texts started to become available in Latin translations of Greek classics from Arabic via Spain (long story). Philosophy, medicine, science, math, all were stimulated by the "new" ideas becoming available.

Carolingian education had been pretty basic; learn the classics and get your grammar right. Scholastics, though, realized this wasn't enough. The "authorities," Christian, Roman and Greek, didn't all agree with each other. So they had to analyze the differences and choose which to follow, or find solutions of their own. So even as they had deep reverence for ancient writers, they also developed an awareness that the ancients could be wrong, and that they could find creative new ideas to advance. As one scholastic put it, "We are like dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants: we are lesser than they, but we see further than they did."

So far from the comic-book caricature of the Middle Ages as "dark ages" with no free inquiry and no creative thinking, the opposite was true. Education was prized, there was tremendous hunger for new books and new learning, and the whole educational system for scholastics was geared towards critical questioning of authorities and logical analysis.

Now, it is true, the high Middle Ages also saw the consolidation of a concept of "Christian society" and ever-increasing claims to authority by popes. Accusations of heresy had been rare in the early Middle Ages, and being convicted of it might mean being stripped of a church office and sent to do penance in a monastery. In the high Middle Ages, things got hairier. R.I. Moore writes of the rise of a "persecuting society." It wasn't uniquely a church thing. In both the new secular and church administrations, an ambitious man on the make could make his reputation as the guy who uncovered a heresy, much as a modern prosecutor can build a career in politics on a high-profile criminal case. Inquisitions were set up as ad hoc church courts to investigate and prosecute in areas where heresies had become widespread, and secular authorities cooperated by allowing them to operate and by executing convicted ringleaders by burning at the stake. Note that the secular authorities had to cooperate for an inquisition to happen: there never was an inquisition in England, nor, for instance, in Scandinavia, because the rulers were not interested in backing them there.

What's remarkable is how few heresy trials were brought against intellectuals for their ideas. There were a handful of burnings of a circle of intellectuals in the 11th century, Peter Abelard was made to recant some of his books in the 12th - very little else till Wycliffe and Hus in the late 14th/early 15th centuries. People were not being persecuted for "free inquiry." Rather, most inquisition victims were middle-class types who adhered to alternative religious movements that challenged church authorities. In fact, there was a very fine line between saints and heretics. Francis of Assissi bore a strong resemblance to Peter Waldes - but Francis got along with his bishop and Peter didn't. Meanwhile in the universities, different intellectuals argued very different ideas on all kinds of topics without getting dragged before the inquisition. You could pursue whatever theory you wanted in terms of astronomy or mathematics or medicine. It only got a little touchy around theology and philosophy, and even then you'd have huge debates between, say, Realists and Nominalists without anyone going to the stake for it.

Sorry for going to some length here, but this is important to me. An entire era of human history has been lampooned and demonized as "dark ages" by modern people who cannot be bothered to actually study it or understand its people. And that demonization and failure of understanding is then used ideologically to support a myth of our present that doesn't hold water.
Excellent and mostly accurate definition. This period happens to be one I find very intriguing, but I am a rank amatuer. The one exception I take is your description of the inquisitions. You touched on it and maybe it was just because of the depth you didn't cover it. You said inquisitions did not happen without the consent of the crown and I accept that as fact; however, they could and did happen without the consent of the Pope. I am referring specifically to the infamous Spanish Inquisition. This was launched by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella. Their agenda was to strip the wealthy Jewish population of their wealth.

The gave the Jews the option of leaving Spain and their assets behind or converting to Christianity. When the majority converted, meaning the crown could not seize their assets, the King and Queen launched the inquisition to determine whether they had truely converted or were pretending so they would not be driven out. The inquisitors were lawyers hired by the crown. There were some clergy involved, but the Pope sent multplie messages to them insisting they stop, but they did not.

And, as to the "Dark Ages" reference, to academians it may be considered inaccurate, annoying, and showing a lack of sophistication, but it is a term most people immediately understand. If the intent is to communicate, use words the audience will recognize.
 
Well put! I have said for the last decade or so that the United States Of America is in the 'bread and circus' stage of devolution. My grandmother thought that Benny Goodman's "jungle music" was the end of the world. My mom asked me to take down my Jimi Hendrix poster because the Irish relatives were coming to visit... (and I did, dammit)...These daze it's Lady Gaga and Jon Stewart VS Fox Nuze... "Bread And Circus"... In my heart I worry for my grand daughters...just as my grandmother worried for me...

The previous generation always feels like the current one are a wasteful bunch of slackers; I know that's usually how this works. I don't necessarily see anything in my children's generation that makes me think that, but I do feel like the world they are inheriting from the Boomers like my parents and Gen-Xers like me is far worse than the one we inherited. I don't feel like they are messing things up, rather that they are trying to find ways to cope with the $#!* sandwich we are leaving behind for them. I suppose escapism is preferable to the stark truth that within their life times parts of the world simple won't exist anymore. That by the end of their lives resource shortages may very well lead to the sort of Dark Age reset we are talking about here as anarchy ensues when people no longer have access to reliable food or water sources.

Fictitious, self congratulatory "news" like what Fox does doesn't do much to help motivate people to work on finding solutions to the dangerous problems facing us. We are doomed if we think praying for rain is the appropriate to climate change that they don't believe is happening anyway. People would rather argue over the political talking points of an issue rather than doing the hard work of actually fixing the issue; they want to score points and make band aid repairs. While people mince words over land ice vs sea ice in Antarctica, low lying parts of India are literally disappearing under water.
Maybe we should get good at praying so we can beg for a quick merciful death rather than a long degenerative extinction.
 
Early on in this discussion hrodbert explained why my use of the term "dark ages" brings up a lot of things we assume about that era that are untrue. Maybe I should have changed the title of the thread early on. For now I will leave it to avoid confusion.
My intention was to ask if others here thought it possible that we could regress into situation where we lose our current knowledge about technology, medicine and even history. Is it possible that we could go back to a pre industrial revolution world ?
I don't believe we are headed that way but it has been a good discussion. I do see some trends that are troubling but nothing that could succeed in erasing all knowledge and destroy our whole infrastructure.
I would like you to be right. I don't think you are, but I want to be wrong.
 
There are several known cases of species that changed their environment enough to lead to their own extinction.
The most notorious are cyanobacteria, that processed the oxygen in the air you currently breath from oceans. Eventually there was too much oxygen in the air for them to survive and they went extinct.

There is still no known life out of Earth so we can only take it as an example. Amongst the billions of species that ever roamed the planet, only one chose intelligence as a mean of survival and succeeded at it.
Intelligence is an incident that could or not happen in any biosphere. Assuming that it's a logical development or that the way we evolved is superior to say, earthworms that actually contribute to enhance soils and have by far the most biomass of all animals on Earth is pretentious and likely a mistake.
Your hypothesis on this subject
What do you think could cause us to regress to a pre industrial revolution world?
The same as last time. Total chaos in the world with terror attacks, wars, and other military conflicts. Just as the infrastructre deterioated after Rome fell, it could again. Once the infrastructure is gone, communications and services will be lost and people will be isolated and have to fend for themselves. There would be few if any schools to educate the children. Militant groups would control various territories and rule them with an iron hand. They would battle for control and resources. Does this start to sound like feudalism in medival europe? Rome wasn't built in a day nor did it fully collapse in a day. It took time.
I know it seems far fetched, but the Titanic was unsinkable, you know.
 
The previous generation always feels like the current one are a wasteful bunch of slackers; I know that's usually how this works. I don't necessarily see anything in my children's generation that makes me think that, but I do feel like the world they are inheriting from the Boomers like my parents and Gen-Xers like me is far worse than the one we inherited. I don't feel like they are messing things up, rather that they are trying to find ways to cope with the $#!* sandwich we are leaving behind for them. I suppose escapism is preferable to the stark truth that within their life times parts of the world simple won't exist anymore. That by the end of their lives resource shortages may very well lead to the sort of Dark Age reset we are talking about here as anarchy ensues when people no longer have access to reliable food or water sources.

Fictitious, self congratulatory "news" like what Fox does doesn't do much to help motivate people to work on finding solutions to the dangerous problems facing us. We are doomed if we think praying for rain is the appropriate to climate change that they don't believe is happening anyway. People would rather argue over the political talking points of an issue rather than doing the hard work of actually fixing the issue; they want to score points and make band aid repairs. While people mince words over land ice vs sea ice in Antarctica, low lying parts of India are literally disappearing under water.
Maybe we should get good at praying so we can beg for a quick merciful death rather than a long degenerative extinction.

I'm one of those baby-boomers who is sprawled across the economic landscape, so I'm part of the problem. Fair enough. But, my parents were born during the depression and were children during World War II. Their young adulthood was during the tenser parts of the Cold War. Things are screwed up now, but nothing like what people their age and their parents age went through. We, as a people, need to keep plugging away and doing what we can with the full understanding that not everything will work and that progress will be uneven.

As far as climate change, climate change deniers, and all that, I'm optimistic about that, too. Humans are animals, and animals generally deal in the short term. If it's miserably cold out, it's pretty tough to explain that the cold weather is part of some kind of warming trend, even if it is. Yeah, we will wait until the last second, and probably until after all kinds of things are going haywire, but the fact that some humans are actually thinking about it and planning for it makes us different from yeast. That doesn't mean we won't all drown in our own excrement like yeast in a bottle of malt, but it gives us a better chance of making it through.

Another thing that makes me optimistic that we won't ever revert to a pre-industrial age is the prevalence of written knowledge. In the Middle Ages, not all information was written down. If a master mason died suddenly, his knowledge may have been lost. If he and his apprentices were wiped out somehow, then that was the end of the line for whatever they did that was different from previous work. Now, everything comes with a manual. Sometimes the manual sucks, but at least there's some record of what to do and how to do it. The idiocracy may happen, but it sure won't be for lack of information passed along. The Middle Ages are when the urge to document everything got started, too. We have just gotten a whole lot better at it.
 
Excellent and mostly accurate definition. This period happens to be one I find very intriguing, but I am a rank amatuer. The one exception I take is your description of the inquisitions. You touched on it and maybe it was just because of the depth you didn't cover it. You said inquisitions did not happen without the consent of the crown and I accept that as fact; however, they could and did happen without the consent of the Pope. I am referring specifically to the infamous Spanish Inquisition. This was launched by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella. Their agenda was to strip the wealthy Jewish population of their wealth.

The gave the Jews the option of leaving Spain and their assets behind or converting to Christianity. When the majority converted, meaning the crown could not seize their assets, the King and Queen launched the inquisition to determine whether they had truely converted or were pretending so they would not be driven out. The inquisitors were lawyers hired by the crown. There were some clergy involved, but the Pope sent multplie messages to them insisting they stop, but they did not.

And, as to the "Dark Ages" reference, to academians it may be considered inaccurate, annoying, and showing a lack of sophistication, but it is a term most people immediately understand. If the intent is to communicate, use words the audience will recognize.

Pretty much. If I remember correctly, the Spanish Inquisition had been established with the usual papal authorization well prior to the forced conversion of the Jews in 1492. There was a shift in court politics, including among the inquisitors, both to press the throne for the forced conversion policy and then to investigate and prosecute conversos for "heresy" in the formed of continuing Judaism afterwards. It was certainly not under papal control by that time (very little in the Middle Ages was controlled by the papacy as much as the popular imagination thinks). You're certainly right that a windfall of confiscated Jewish property was a motivation for the forced conversions. There was another factor in the persecution of conversos; political factions at court could use the inquisition to dispose of rivals. There had been a lot of Jewish conversions over the years, both voluntary and forced, not just in 1492, and a lot of prominent people in Spain had at least some Jewish ancestry. Names like Lopez and Rodriguez originally indicated Sephardic Jews. Casting suspicion on such ancestry was a neat (and very dirty) trick to use. The sixteenth and seventeenth centuries saw the Spanish aristocracy obsessed with "Limpiedas de Sangre," "Purity of blood," meaning no Jewish ancestors.

The problem with the phrase "Dark Ages" is that it's not value-neutral. It immediately evokes a set of distorted stereotypes about the era, and thus perpetuates ignorance. You can inform people all you want about the realities of an historical era, but then let the History Channel or a bestselling book use the term "Dark Ages" in a title and everybody skips a groove back to the way we thought a hundred years ago. One thing that I've found interesting on this thread is how many different negative stereotypes people have responded with, in their notion of what a "new Dark Ages" means. For some, it's illiteracy, superstition and ignorance; for some, it's extreme disparity of wealth and the domination of a hereditary upper class; for some, it's technological collapse; for some, it's endemic conflict and violence. Will the real "Dark Ages" please stand up? Everybody is projecting their own anxieties about the future on a particular historical era. Someone - I think it was LiquidMidnight - raised the absence of "public intellectuals" in our society. Well, if historians are going to step up to the plate and communicate with the public, one thing they can start by doing is calling things by their proper names and stop perpetuating stereotypes rather than knowledge.
 
One thing that I've found interesting on this thread is how many different negative stereotypes people have responded with, in their notion of what a "new Dark Ages" means. For some, it's illiteracy, superstition and ignorance; for some, it's extreme disparity of wealth and the domination of a hereditary upper class; for some, it's technological collapse; for some, it's endemic conflict and violence. Will the real "Dark Ages" please stand up? Everybody is projecting their own anxieties about the future on a particular historical era. Someone - I think it was LiquidMidnight - raised the absence of "public intellectuals" in our society. Well, if historians are going to step up to the plate and communicate with the public, one thing they can start by doing is calling things by their proper names and stop perpetuating stereotypes rather than knowledge.
I have noticed that too even with my own concerns. It may be anxiety but it also may be based on who we are ant what is important to us. A lot of the concerns here are worth consideration.
I tend to disregard those who want to assign responsibility for our problems to some other group or world view that doesn't match their own.
 
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And by the way, when I talk about "ignorance" and all I don't mean to be dumping on anyone posting on the thread, nor Slobake, with whom I've already had this conversation. I'm thinking more about the media and the press, and the labels and concepts they feed people to think with.
Are you saying I'm not smart? I'll have you know I made it all the way through the sixth grade with a 2.0 GPA. I am also up on all the latest snarky commentators who make a living telling me what I should think. Besides my wife told me what the dork ages were like. It was about all those those pimply boys she dated in high school.
So take that Mr. wiseguy. Ahhhhh .... what were we talking about?

Okay kidding aside, I have never felt talked down to in any way by you. I respect all the hard work you have put into learning about this subject and I really enjoy your posts. Great discussions and opportunities to learn about this and all kinds of other things are what keep me around here.
Some people pay big bucks to listen to you teach about the Middle Ages but I get it here for free. :hyper:
I also like reading most of the responses here. I like people and I like to learn about who they are and what they think about things. That is my motivation for some of the threads I start here. I often form pictures in my mind about what people look like, where they work and live etc... Most of them are probably wrong.
 
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