Are we headed towards a new dark ages?

[12bass]

To be clear, before carrying on with discussion, it makes sense to first identify what the OP means by a "return to the Dark Ages" before trying to determine whether or not it might be the case. I see all kinds of worrying things going on in the world today, though I'm not sure of the validity of the comparison with Medieval times. While some issues we currently face may be similar to problems faced by human civilization for millennia, others are new problems which we have never dealt with before (e.g. anthropogenic climate change, depletion of natural resources, etc...).

 

[socialleper]

Do we currently live in an era where there are Crusades, Inquisitions, etc...?

No, but we are close. If you look at what is happening in the Middle East and parts of Africa, where groups that don't fit into a prescribed ideological box are being killed with reckless abandon. it feels pretty close.

Do these things seem likely to reappear in the Western World in the near future?

It seems that these sorts of things stop when economic opportunity and cooperation are more within reach than anarchy and theological nihilism. It is debatable as to whether or not some of these regions have always been this chaotic and we just didn't know about it, or if this is some kind of trend. Whether it is coverage or an actual trend, it is growing.

 

[socialleper]

When the OP said a new Dark Age, I thought he meant it in a metaphorical, colloquial sense, meaning an age of regressive ignorance and intellectual stagnation. Maybe he meant something else. It is interesting to see how people respond to that I guess.

 

[12bass]

No, but we are close. If you look at what is happening in the Middle East and parts of Africa, where groups that don't fit into a prescribed ideological box are being killed with reckless abandon. it feels pretty close.

It seems that these sorts of things stop when economic opportunity and cooperation are more within reach than anarchy and theological nihilism. It is debatable as to whether or not some of these regions have always been this chaotic and we just didn't know about it, or if this is some kind of trend. Whether it is coverage or an actual trend, it is growing.

While I agree that theocracies are alive and well in some parts of the world, I think it is important to focus on the trends in the West, where increasing secularization is the norm, along with increased life spans, a higher standard of living, access to education, etc.... Also, there seem to be geopolitical causes behind the unrest in many of the regions mentioned, like destabilization by Western powers.

 

[Jazz Ad]

Do we currently live in an era where there are Crusades, Inquisitions, etc...

You'd have to be blind not to see it.
Democracy is the new Christianity. If you don't comply you deserve to be eradicated.
The last crusades included Libya, Irak and Afghanistan.

 

[socialleper]

While I agree that theocracies are alive and well in some parts of the world, I think it is important to focus on the trends in the West, where increasing secularization is the norm, along with increased life spans, a higher standard of living, access to education, etc.... Also, there seem to be geopolitical causes behind the unrest in many of the regions mentioned, like destabilization by Western powers.

As much as I would LOVE to write off the entire continent of Africa and most of Asia, we have learned the hard way that we can't. However I think we are also learning the hard way right now that our short sighted tinkering in those areas can really come back to bite us in the backside. A lot of what is happening is a result of our lack of wisdom.

 

[12bass]

You'd have to be blind not to see it.
Democracy is the new Christianity. If you don't comply you deserve to be eradicated.
The last crusades included Libya, Irak and Afghanistan.

LOL... spreading "freedom" and "democracy" one bomb at a time. Perhaps my idea of democracy is somewhat different....

 

[Jazz Ad]

But does your idea of Christianity comply with inquisition and crusades?

 

[12bass]

But does your idea of Christianity comply with inquisition and crusades?

Hard to say... I'm not religious, so that is not a mode of thinking I can identify with. Some might agree that it was justified, just as some think that Jihad is justified.

 

[12bass]

It seems to me that to avoid another "Dark Ages" (misnomer or not), we need to fight to keep our hard-fought civil liberties.

 

[Gaolee]

But does your idea of Christianity comply with inquisition and crusades?

No, not at all, but then I have a current day interpretation of things. There are people who are doctrinaire in unfortunate ways, and who interpret things in the most onerous, coercive, violent possible way. At one time in history, that was a lot more normal and a lot more globally accepted than it is now. There are regressive elements trying mightily to hang on to the old ways. They will hang on, and there isn't much we can do about it until the people who lead those movements don't get traction. Over time, I expect growing prosperity will make extremists less and less welcome. I also think Iran might be the first true democracy in the Middle East, excepting Israel. They will get there because a growing middle class will demand it, not because of anything from the outside. It will be progress, and it will be different from what happens in the west, but it will also have the effect of making intolerance, whether for religious or other reasons, less pervasive. It will also make it less and less likely that Iran will export mischief, because they will have better things to do. This runs counter to the usual thinking, and I know that.

 

[slobake]

Perhaps the OP itself was malformed....

Do we currently live in an era where there are Crusades, Inquisitions, etc...? Do these things seem likely to reappear in the Western World in the near future? If not, then it would seem as if we are not returning to the "Dark Ages" whether the term is a misnomer or not.

Some have told me that I am malformed but my doctor said I'm not. Of course he has an ear shaped like a carrot so who knows?

 

[socialleper]

While we are on the topic of intelligent people doing brain dead things that have monumental consequences, and so show that this isn't just a US/Anglo thing, I saw something about China the other day that ticked me off to no end. They are paying African captains big bucks to slaughter small sharks by the thousands just for the fins. For soup. They are decimating entire fishery populations for just the fin a shark to make f'ing soup! Their ridiculous belief that rhino horn has some medical properties, despite being made of nothing but what your nails are made from, is leading to the destruction of rhino populations in Africa. Since killing rhinos is actually pretty hard, the poachers tranquilize them and then hack their skulls apart to get the horn while the animal is still alive, so some Chinese guy can get a boner.
The African poachers go along with it because what is the alternative? Joining a militia or starving to death?
How can a technologically advanced people like the Chinese be an open party and enabler to the extinction of species over home cooking and home remedies? That definitely has to be some kind of medievalism.

 

[slobake]

To be clear, before carrying on with discussion, it makes sense to first identify what the OP means by a "return to the Dark Ages" before trying to determine whether or not it might be the case. I see all kinds of worrying things going on in the world today, though I'm not sure of the validity of the comparison with Medieval times. While some issues we currently face may be similar to problems faced by human civilization for millennia, others are new problems which we have never dealt with before (e.g. anthropogenic climate change, depletion of natural resources, etc...).

Early on in this discussion hrodbert explained why my use of the term "dark ages" brings up a lot of things we assume about that era that are untrue. Maybe I should have changed the title of the thread early on. For now I will leave it to avoid confusion.
My intention was to ask if others here thought it possible that we could regress into situation where we lose our current knowledge about technology, medicine and even history. Is it possible that we could go back to a pre industrial revolution world ?
I don't believe we are headed that way but it has been a good discussion. I do see some trends that are troubling but nothing that could succeed in erasing all knowledge and destroy our whole infrastructure.

 

[slobake]

There has been some discussion here about different groups and the dumbing down of society. There may be some validity to those ideas but I think that type of thinking is part of the problem.
Some of us like to point out the flaws in groups and/or people that are different than we are. That is a mistake. We need to focus on ourselves first and as some have said try and understand how others think and what motivates them. That is no excuse for some of the atrocities committed in the world today but it is an opportunity to ask ourselves if we as a people are committing acts that lead to hatred, instability and polarization.
Next it is good to look at our own personal lives instead of automatically blaming troubling situations on others. How do we treat our family, our neighbors, our coworkers, our friends? Does it draw us closer together or cause separation? I think how we act is individuals is reflected in how we act as a society.
Do we complain to others how everything is going down the toilet and let it stop there or are we trying to do our part to make things better? Sometimes we can only do small things but those small efforts by many may add up to larger change.
Those are some of my concerns.

Who wants the soapbox next?

 

[12bass]

Early on in this discussion hrodbert explained why my use of the term "dark ages" brings up a lot of things we assume about that era that are untrue. Maybe I should have changed the title of the thread early on. For now I will leave it to avoid confusion.
My intention was to ask if others here thought it possible that we could regress into situation where we lose our current knowledge about technology, medicine and even history. Is it possible that we could go back to a pre industrial revolution world ?
I don't believe we are headed that way but it has been a good discussion. I do see some trends that are troubling but nothing that could succeed in erasing all knowledge and destroy our whole infrastructure.

A nuclear war could do it....

Personally, I think we are at an interesting time in human civilization, where we are faced with making decisions which will impact the entire ecosystem along with our own survival. No other species has ever been in the position where it could knowingly bring about its own extinction. Hopefully we will pass this test. If there are other intelligent creatures out there in the Universe, I'd like to know how they dealt with these challenges, along with how many survived and how they did so....

This quote speaks to the point:

Far from being the smartest possible biological species, we are probably better thought of as the stupidest possible biological species capable of starting a technological civilization-a niche we filled because we got there first, not because we are in any sense optimally adapted to it.

-Nick Bostrom

 

[slobake]

A nuclear war could do it....

Yes it probably could. What can we do to decrease the likelihood of that happening?
There are political ways to go about that and some of those are worthwhile. I think the only real lasting change will come about one person at a time.
To change the heart of society start with changing the heart of one man.

 

[ArtechnikA]

To change the heart of society start with changing the heart of one man.

Dr. Michael deBakey to the White Courtesy telephone...

In addition to self-inflicted means like nuclear war, one decent asteroid hit could tip a whole bunch of delicate systems off their balance - it only took an earthquake/tsunami event to disrupt a big chunk of the Pacific Rim.

I've been through a big earthquake (Northridge 1994) and I expect you have too.
There were people who were completely overwhelmed. They had never experienced a time when you didn't immediately get a dial tone - or lived without electricity for a week.

 

[slobake]

Dr. Michael deBakey to the White Courtesy telephone...


I've been through a big earthquake (Northridge 1994) and I expect you have too.
There were people who were completely overwhelmed. They had never experienced a time when you didn't immediately get a dial tone - or lived without electricity for a week.

I used to do that to myself on purpose hiking into the wilderness for a week or two at a time. Living out of a backpack. It was great! But alas I damaged my ankle beyond repair on one of those trips so 20 mile hikes are off my program now.
I wonder if I could canoe into the wilderness somewhere?
Yes, I have been through two very intense earthquakes.

 

[bluesblaster]

A week or so out in the wilderness without the modern conviences we take for granted will give you a bit of perspective, not to mention appreciation for said conveniences.