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Are we pushing too much low frequency?
- Thread starter DigitalMan
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Actually, I like clean, ultra low, reproduction and think that it does not need to take anything away from the overall sound quality. If anything, those ultra lows should only add an extra dimension, filling out the deep fundamentals which are often missing on lesser systems. That said, I'm also a proponent of high fidelity and maintaining a good spectral balance in the mix, which means not pushing boomy lows at the expense of overall musicality.
A few weeks ago I saw Sarah McLachlan and the subby kick drum really overwhelmed the mix, with next to no definition in the bass guitar. It wouldn't have been so bad if the drummer had not been a bit stiff and not really in the groove for the first part of the show. Thankfully, Sarah's vocal sound was stellar, as expected. Shortly after that I saw the Peter Gabriel/Sting show in Calgary which was on a whole other level of professional sound/musicianship. The mix for that show was excellent, with deep bass in some parts, but never to the detriment of the music.
A few weeks ago I saw Sarah McLachlan and the subby kick drum really overwhelmed the mix, with next to no definition in the bass guitar. It wouldn't have been so bad if the drummer had not been a bit stiff and not really in the groove for the first part of the show. Thankfully, Sarah's vocal sound was stellar, as expected. Shortly after that I saw the Peter Gabriel/Sting show in Calgary which was on a whole other level of professional sound/musicianship. The mix for that show was excellent, with deep bass in some parts, but never to the detriment of the music.
Bass guitar, yes. Sub 50k isn't the strong suit for the instrument. I wish it was but it isn't.
Synth bass, no.
Balance is tricky. It's too often things are boomy and or ice pick bright.
Synth bass, no.
Balance is tricky. It's too often things are boomy and or ice pick bright.
I stumbled on an outdoor concert early in the summer that was nicely mixed. Could easily have learned the bass part by ear (guitar a little quiet, vocalist should have been turned down to zero). But my youngest still said "I can hear the music with my tummy."
I complemented the sound guy, and he told me was working two PAs simultaneously--house and band. Plus mixing from the stage. It was an impressive job.
I complemented the sound guy, and he told me was working two PAs simultaneously--house and band. Plus mixing from the stage. It was an impressive job.
I like hearing the sub-40Hz fundamentals on the B-string. It feels somewhat empty IMO if they are not there in the mix. I don't think they take anything away from the overall sound if they are reproduced cleanly.
That said, I gather that the OP is talking about something different... where the subs are overpowering everything else and leaving the mix out of balance.
I think people who try to push the subs either really know what they are doing or they have no clue. Not a lot of mid ground.
Also, low B is 31Hz (sorry if that reads a little snarky. It's not meant to be).
Weird... I play other notes on the B-string too.... maybe I'm funny that way.
Anyway, I don't look at this issue in binary terms, as in either don't reproduce low fundamentals at all or push them to the front of the mix. Rather, I'm in favor of balanced reproduction of low fundamentals.
Weird... I play other notes on the B-string too.... maybe I'm funny that way.
Point taken.
When I was a kid, amusement rides had loud muddy rock playing. I saw Deep Purple in 6000 seat venue decades ago and all I heard at that show was some shrill crap that was presumably a guitar, some muddy crap that was all the low end stuff, hi hat, and Ian Gillan. I saw Metallica decades ago in an arena. I heard nothing but garbage there too. In all those cases the volume was punishing, all the lows were a wash, all the highs were a wash, there was a vocalist. There was no music, at the live show. On record there was music. Live it was garbage where I sat.
So, live sound hasn't good to me in the lows or highs over the decades regardless of fads.
I haven't ever heard a PA that can throw out sub 40hz. I understand that kind of performance is a specialized deal and commercial PA providers high pass more like 45hz. So it would not surprise me if you have been drawn into the missing fundamental black hole of misunderstanding.
There is an easy test. Play sines through your bass rig at low volume. You will find the volume drops off like crazy at some point well above 30hz no matter your rig.
That humungous bottom B you are hearing is almost certainly all 60hz. Don't knock it until you have played sines through your rig.
I've been to a million reggae concerts and I can't remember one that had overpowering muddy lows.
Usually everything bass is high passed somewhere around 60-80hz and the mixes are clear and defined without the bass masking other instruments. Of course this is also partially the way the music is arranged but it's always pop and dance bands these days that have the subby overpowering bass.
I hate it and see no reason for it, even though I am addicted to proper lows and powerful bass. I don't know who to blame as it seems so prevalent.
Usually everything bass is high passed somewhere around 60-80hz and the mixes are clear and defined without the bass masking other instruments. Of course this is also partially the way the music is arranged but it's always pop and dance bands these days that have the subby overpowering bass.
I hate it and see no reason for it, even though I am addicted to proper lows and powerful bass. I don't know who to blame as it seems so prevalent.
I'm familiar with the phenomenon of loss of fundamental with most bass enclosures; I can hear it with my T3W 15/6/1 on notes below low E. I can also tell that I'm hearing less fundamental on the low B, as the notes "thin out" as the pitch goes down and the overtones take over. However, some concert systems are capable of reproducing those low fundamentals and it is possible to discern the difference between true low fundamentals and their overtones.
Deep low end is great, but not at the expense of good low mids. Most of the good stuff and pitch definition in a bass is usually between 100-400Hz, (everything above and below is down to your tone choices,
I love a bit of clank) but some engineers neglect that now they have subs that can blast out 50Hz. At glastonbury festival's main stage, their subs reach incredibly low compared to other venues/festivals but the engineers used restraint when that stuff wasn't needed (oh and it was glorious when they did let the fundamentals loose for acts that benefitted).
I love having fundamental in my tone, although I rarely get it below A cause of my cabs and venues' PAs, but I'll let it go if it means mudfest/not fitting with the kick otherwise.
I voted carrots cause sometimes yay, sometimes nay. All depends.
I love a bit of clank) but some engineers neglect that now they have subs that can blast out 50Hz. At glastonbury festival's main stage, their subs reach incredibly low compared to other venues/festivals but the engineers used restraint when that stuff wasn't needed (oh and it was glorious when they did let the fundamentals loose for acts that benefitted).
I love having fundamental in my tone, although I rarely get it below A cause of my cabs and venues' PAs, but I'll let it go if it means mudfest/not fitting with the kick otherwise.
I voted carrots cause sometimes yay, sometimes nay. All depends.
Few things annoy me more than false dichotomies.....
While I tend to agree that having an even response from roughly 80Hz up (especially through the midrange) is important (and probably largely sufficient for most music), I also think that having solid, accurate, balanced, low fundamental reproduction down to 30Hz need not compromise the overall sound quality and can significantly add to the listening experience.
I've seen a few concerts where those low fundamentals were accurate, authoritative, and awesome, when called for, yet the mix was clear and unaffected for the rest of the show. The problem brought up by the OP seems to be in the lack of good judgment by some mixing engineers, not the fact that it is now possible to reproduce lower frequencies better than in decades past.
While I tend to agree that having an even response from roughly 80Hz up (especially through the midrange) is important (and probably largely sufficient for most music), I also think that having solid, accurate, balanced, low fundamental reproduction down to 30Hz need not compromise the overall sound quality and can significantly add to the listening experience.
I've seen a few concerts where those low fundamentals were accurate, authoritative, and awesome, when called for, yet the mix was clear and unaffected for the rest of the show. The problem brought up by the OP seems to be in the lack of good judgment by some mixing engineers, not the fact that it is now possible to reproduce lower frequencies better than in decades past.
And I can't tell you how many reggae bassists I've seen dime the bass knob on the amp, kill all treble and mids, and turn the tone knob on the bass all the way down. Also have seen sound techs compensate for it in the house
but they do like the bass to throb.
Be a cold day in hell before I let any PA throw me out - even if I am just a sub for that gig. If I'm gonna get kicked out, it better be a full MD's decision to do so.
Part of the problem with many live shows is that they mix everything like they're in a dance club.
I like the bass to thump as much as anybody, but also think that the sound should be blended so that every instrument comes thru. Whenever I'm at a show and all I can hear is the kick drum inevitably the soundman is younger. Older bands that travel with their own soundman who is also older tend to have better mixes for overall sound.
Two shows that come to mind are when I saw The New Riders of the Purple Sage in Lincoln and The Dixie Chicks in Hartford. Both shows were mixed very well as you could hear every instrument with none overpowering any other.
Another show was Theory of a Deadman in Lincoln. The two opening acts were very kickdrum and lows emphasized to the point where it was hard to hear the vocalist and the other instruments. Every note just mushed into the one before it and the one after it. When Theory came on all of a sudden the mix was cleaned up and balanced so that while the kick and bass still thumped they weren't drowning out the guitars and the vocals.
I like the bass to thump as much as anybody, but also think that the sound should be blended so that every instrument comes thru. Whenever I'm at a show and all I can hear is the kick drum inevitably the soundman is younger. Older bands that travel with their own soundman who is also older tend to have better mixes for overall sound.
Two shows that come to mind are when I saw The New Riders of the Purple Sage in Lincoln and The Dixie Chicks in Hartford. Both shows were mixed very well as you could hear every instrument with none overpowering any other.
Another show was Theory of a Deadman in Lincoln. The two opening acts were very kickdrum and lows emphasized to the point where it was hard to hear the vocalist and the other instruments. Every note just mushed into the one before it and the one after it. When Theory came on all of a sudden the mix was cleaned up and balanced so that while the kick and bass still thumped they weren't drowning out the guitars and the vocals.
And I can't tell you how many reggae bassists I've seen dime the bass knob on the amp, kill all treble and mids, and turn the tone knob on the bass all the way down. Also have seen sound techs compensate for it in the house
Guess I've been lucky!
The only times I've heard this was amateur bands on smaller festival stages.
