Are you your own worst enemy? [Bad practice habits]

[WrapRough]

Im also learning myself and have no band/pro ambitions right now so my goal is to have fun, and that tend to mean different things, sometimes I learn more theory, sometimes play along to songs by ear, sometimes with tab/notes and practice sight reading. My biggest problem has always been lack of discipline and the main villain is having the computer on since internet forums/youtube (like right now I have the bass in my lap and write this stuff lol) and chats with friends etc leads to loads of time procrastinating. When I turn off the computer and use my books together with mentronome and contentration I get loads of progress and thats also a good feeling.

This is a really good point... I have started putting my phone on flight mode while practicing. I use the metronome app on my phone, but kept looking at alerts... So, flight mode sorts that out. But what if someone needs me urgently, I hear you ask... Tough - i'm practicing, you'll have to wait

 

[shufflebass123]

My 2 cents: learning by ear is over rated and not only doesn't make you a better player: it wastes time that you could use to become a better player.

Will musicians hire you for a gig because you eschewed tabs and learned by ear? 'Wow, you know, we audtioned this bass player. He over plays and his timing is terrible. He never practices with a metronome. And he should get a teacher. But we hired him anyway because he learns really well by ear. He doesn't use any of these online resources that people who became players prior to the internet could only dream of. What a stud.' If you think that that conversation has ever happened or will ever happen in the history of music, then I want what you're smoking. Learning by ear, using no other resources like tabs, is a waste of time and a fool's errand. All it will do is hold you back. It will quite literally do nothing else for you but that. If you're a great learn by ear guy and don't use tabs or watch videos, newsflash: no one gives a sh!t and it in no way, shape, or form makes you a better musician. Congratulations.

Take all the time you're wasting doing that and work every single day with a metronome. Here's a timing excercise that will absolutely make you a better musician:

1. Set your metronome to 40 BPM. You can start by setting it to 50 or 60. But 40 should be your goal.
2. Play a major scale or any scale you want, with the first note and the fourth note being on the click.
3. Repeat same, but with the second and fifth note on the click.
4. Repeat same, but with the third and sixth note on the clcik.
5. Repeat same, but with the fourth and seventh note on the click.

 

[WrapRough]

My 2 cents: learning by ear is over rated and not only doesn't make you a better player: it wastes time that you could use to become a better player.

Will musicians hire you for a gig because you eschewed tabs and learned by ear? 'Wow, you know, we audtioned this bass player. He over plays and his timing is terrible. He never practices with a metronome. And he should get a teacher. But we hired him anyway because he learns really well by ear. He doesn't use any of these online resources that people who became players prior to the internet could only dream of. What a stud.' If you think that that conversation has ever happened or will ever happen in the history of music, then I want what you're smoking. Learning by ear, using no other resources like tabs, is a waste of time and a fool's errand. All it will do is hold you back. It will quite literally do nothing else for you but that. If you're a great learn by ear guy and don't use tabs or watch videos, newsflash: no one gives a sh!t and it in no way, shape, or form makes you a better musician. Congratulations.

Take all the time you're wasting doing that and work every single day with a metronome. Here's a timing excercise that will absolutely make you a better musician:

1. Set your metronome to 40 BPM. You can start by setting it to 50 or 60. But 40 should be your goal.
2. Play a major scale or any scale you want, with the first note and the fourth note being on the click.
3. Repeat same, but with the second and fifth note on the click.
4. Repeat same, but with the third and sixth note on the clcik.
5. Repeat same, but with the fourth and seventh note on the click.

Do you consider ear training an equally futile endeavour? Or just learning songs by ear?

 

[WillyW]

I get bored and get into "Jazz Odyssey" mode and don't accomplish anything...

-or- I decide I need to repaint/defret/or otherwise tune something or another on the instrument...

 

[mrcbass]

My 2 cents: learning by ear is over rated and not only doesn't make you a better player: it wastes time that you could use to become a better player.

Respectfully disagree. Anything you can do to improve your ability to learn songs is beneficial. I agree that it should not be the only way you can learn a song - reading (in any form) is a huge benefit - but being able to learn songs by ear is good as well.

Using your little audition example as a basis, no, it should not impress anyone that you learned the audition list by ear. Who cares how you got there? But when you're there and they throw a curve ball at you: "Hey, do you know XYZ?" and you're able to say, "I've never played but could probably fake my way through it" - and do so - could be the difference between getting the job or not. You need to spend a lot of time doing ear training to be able either play a song you've only ever heard or pick up a song that you've never heard on the fly. I can play many songs (that I've never even heard of) competently by the third verse. That comes from spending a lot of time with ear training. That's what I do when I just want to play for fun - put on a Pandora station and just play with whatever pops up.

 

[baileyboy]

I taught myself to play, learning songs by ear, while in high school. I wasn't very good, and mostly just stuck to roots. As an adult, I found myself playing bass at family functions, but had limited ability. I decided I wanted to take lessons, and did so. What lessons mostly did for me was undo poor technique. I now use all 4 fingers to fret, and use both the index and middle fingers to play. Everything else came much easier after learning proper technique.

 

[sawzalot]

Early on I was entirely self-taught. My right-hand technique was TERRIBLE. I had no knowledge of scales, let alone modes or theory on the bass. I was/am a keyboardist before I was a bassist so I was thinking in terms of the keyboard and translating to bass in my head before it could come out my fingers. I definitely wasn't getting where I wanted to be and in retrospect I wasn't going to get there by continuing to do what I was doing.

The solution: Simple. A teacher. One at first that straightened out my technique and gave me some basic exercises to develop dexterity, control, and discipline. Another a few months later, who I studied with for a long time, who helped me develop theory and more technique. As someone above said, if I have the cash to spend on basses, but I'm not playing well, a better investment is to spend the cash on a teacher. I can play well and do a fine job at a gig with a really cheap bass because I have the musicianship now to do it.

 

[Williethump]

Elderly 3-year student bedroom bassist here. I do believe lessons are a key but then I never have taken any yet-covid-19. Music is my best therapy so I don't much mind my slow learning and aged memory defects. I'm thrilled to be making music at all. Plus, nobody is ever going to ask me to be the Sex Pistols' new bass player so I'm under no pressure, it's all for joy.
On the plus side I have good rythem, I learned the common scales, the finger box patterns and the I-IV-V blues progression so I can fake the blues up and down the neck for hours.
I'm good with timing, I suppose because I nearly always play along with my Roland Bass Cube drum tracks, three versions each of a dozen varied drum lines. Less boring and more real world than that tick-tocking metronome.
Sadly, I mostly spend my practice/playing time for hours a day on improv blues riffs instead of learning songs. Also I'm a total TAB junkie and can play a song using TABs 500 times and not learn it. Maybe I'll learn to read music some day-a distant goal.
Rote memorization is tough for us old volks so the notes on the fretboard are largely terra incognito for me. I'm bluesing away but I have little clue which note I'm playing.
Sad. I converted a defunct bass neck into this training aid but so far with little joy. One of these days.
I don't put myself down for my learning faults, I have all the time in the world to get better and I see slow improvement through time.
My low key goals are to hit my textbook harder (Progressive Bass, Turner and White, 1-4-5 blues based instruction), actually learn the fretboard, learn new songs instead of so much 'Jazz Odyssey' (thanks @WillyWonka for that phrase). And buy some bass

lessons when the pandemic breaks.

 

[BassGeekJack]

I think my worst habit at this point is not taking the time to figure out the easiest way to play something (and I do know my scales). For instance, I can kind of play "Donna Lee" at Jaco speed, but it's messy. I've been playing it the same way so long that it's become muscle memory and I am quite resistant to learning different fingerings even though I'm likely making it harder on myself.

TL;DR: I'm lazy.

 

[Cheez]

Yep, get a teacher. AND JAM! Play with other folks. Unrehearsed. Drummers, guitar players, Keyboard...pretty much any instrument..as long as it's with real people.

 

[BassGeekJack]

My absolute worst habit:

View attachment 4215603

I really need to get away from this thing.

Oh yeah, that too . I majored in music, I was in the school jazz band and a jazz trio, my bass teacher played for the Airmen of Note, and I've been playing (mostly) consistently for 15 years. The fact that I don't memorize the changes in any single chart in the Real Book (besides the blues ones) is just sad.

 

[shufflebass123]

Do you consider ear training an equally futile endeavour? Or just learning songs by ear?

I consider any activity that slows down the process of figuring out, for example, what Flea is doing on 'Aeroplane', an utterly stupid and pointless endeavour that in no way, shape, or form, makes you a better player. Actually playing 'Aeroplane', and absorbing some of that player's thought process/style, absolutely makes you a better player. If I hand you a tab of Aeroplane that is 'only' 80% correct, and you decide to eschew that and learn it from scratch because it isn't 100% correct, which is what OP seems to be implying, and, in starting from scratch, it takes you 4 weeks to learn the song, you have just wasted 80% of 4 weeks' time. You have gained nothing at all in your musicianship. Zilch. Nada.

People can disagree with that and that's fine but, to those who do, I have a question: The first violin chair in the NY Philharmonic never sat down and figured out 'Rite of Spring.' They had it all written out for them. Does that mean that he/she is inferior because they're going off a 'tab'? Seriously?

 

[WrapRough]

I consider any activity that slows down the process of figuring out, for example, what Flea is doing on 'Aeroplane', an utterly stupid and pointless endeavour that in no way, shape, or form, makes you a better player. Actually playing 'Aeroplane', and absorbing some of that player's thought process/style, absolutely makes you a better player. If I hand you a tab of Aeroplane that is 'only' 80% correct, and you decide to eschew that and learn it from scratch because it isn't 100% correct, which is what OP seems to be implying, and, in starting from scratch, it takes you 4 weeks to learn the song, you have just wasted 80% of 4 weeks' time. You have gained nothing at all in your musicianship. Zilch. Nada.

People can disagree with that and that's fine but, to those who do, I have a question: The first violin chair in the NY Philharmonic never sat down and figured out 'Rite of Spring.' They had it all written out for them. Does that mean that he/she is inferior because they're going off a 'tab'? Seriously?

I dont necessarily disagree, but, for me, I am using learning songs by ear as a way to practice ear training, and not really purely to learn the song. As you say, there are much quicker ways to learn a song if your only goal is be able to play it.

But I think training your ears to understand intervals is a valuable skill, which is what my goal is when learning songs by ear (recently started, was a TAB junky before)

 

[shufflebass123]

Respectfully disagree. Anything you can do to improve your ability to learn songs is beneficial. I agree that it should not be the only way you can learn a song - reading (in any form) is a huge benefit - but being able to learn songs by ear is good as well.

Using your little audition example as a basis, no, it should not impress anyone that you learned the audition list by ear. Who cares how you got there? But when you're there and they throw a curve ball at you: "Hey, do you know XYZ?" and you're able to say, "I've never played but could probably fake my way through it" - and do so - could be the difference between getting the job or not. You need to spend a lot of time doing ear training to be able either play a song you've only ever heard or pick up a song that you've never heard on the fly. I can play many songs (that I've never even heard of) competently by the third verse. That comes from spending a lot of time with ear training. That's what I do when I just want to play for fun - put on a Pandora station and just play with whatever pops up.

We can agree to disagree. I don't know how any musicians could expect a person to fake their way through what is by any objective measure one of the most difficult basslines ever written. If someone asked me that question and took any response other than 'I'll go home and learn it' as unacceptable, I would consider them to be unreasonable douche bags that I no longer want to play with. On the other hand, by osmosis of learning songs for years, I could easily fake my through a CCR or any other middling rock song blindfolded and drunk.

Can you imagine asking a keyboard player to just fake his way through 'Turkish March' or a guitar player to just fake his way through a Satriani tune? Because anyone asking that player to fake their way through that is an unreasonable douche bag and not worth my time.

There is, among musicians, an overall complete lack of understanding and a complete disinterest in what we do, especially from guitar players who think because they have 2 more strings and play chords that they are automatically somehow supoerior musicians. We won't even get into it about how most guitar players haven't got a clue as to what makes a diminished chord a diminished chord, or an augmented or a suspended. They just play it, oblivious to what's in it. Maybe I'll start a thread about how guitarists are f@cking morons and musical illiterates. But I digress. They think bass is easy and you can just pull 'YYZ' out of your ass. People like that need a smack upside the head.

I stick by my stance.

 

[shufflebass123]

I dont necessarily disagree, but, for me, I am using learning songs by ear as a way to practice ear training, and not really purely to learn the song. As you say, there are much quicker ways to learn a song if your only goal is be able to play it.

But I think training your ears to understand intervals is a valuable skill, which is what my goal is when learning songs by ear (recently started, was a TAB junky before)

I don't disagree. I was answering OP's question. You are setting a different context vis a vis ear training that OP never mentioned. In other words, you're making a valid point but your point is somewhat off the subject. OP was talking about learning songs. If your only goal is to learn the song either for a gig or as an exerecise to expand your skills, then every moment you spend getting there is time wasted.

 

[CallMeAl]

I suppose I'd define my enemy as lack of focus and organization. When I'm in a plateau, my method is to
1) define my goals,
2) preprogram my practice time (like a workout plan),
3) take notes daily,
4) assess and repeat.

(this can be done in coordination with a teacher, which I agree is a great idea.)

So from your thoughts, might do a monthly plan for 5-10 minutes of scales or arpeggios to a metronome (2 birds, 1 stone). Something specific like major arpeggios, 3 keys a week. Then 5-10 minutes of ear training. I use the Amazing Slow Downer app, it's incredible. As someone with an admitted tin ear, slowing down to even 90% speed makes recordings much easier to decipher.

Then after that, go into your usual song routine. Doesn't have to be a huge reform of your practice time, and you'll keep the joy and lightness to your sessions.

best of luck!

 

[31HZ]

People can disagree with that and that's fine but, to those who do, I have a question: The first violin chair in the NY Philharmonic never sat down and figured out 'Rite of Spring.' They had it all written out for them. Does that mean that he/she is inferior because they're going off a 'tab'? Seriously?

It's a completely different skillset based on the context of the type of performance. I know of classically trained folks who look at musicians who can improvise solos, create basslines out of thin air, and set a groove to the drums and think, whoa, how does one even begin to go about doing that?

 

[shufflebass123]

It's a completely different skillset based on the context of the type of performance. I know of classically trained folks who look at musicians who can improvise solos, create basslines out of thin air, and set a groove to the drums and think, whoa, how does one even begin to go about doing that?

I agree. My wife is one. She is a classically trained pianist who can't wrap her head around the idea that I don't need written notes to play an XTC song. 'Wow, how do you remember it without sheet music?' My response: Why do I need it? However, the question before us is OP seems held back in his musicianship. Whenever you're learning any skill, time is of the essence. The more time you spend on unnecessary bullsh!t, the less you learn. Simple as that. I identified what is a complete waste of his time in order to help him get to where he wants to get.

 

[millbaars]

I don't disagree. I was answering OP's question. You are setting a different context vis a vis ear training that OP never mentioned. In other words, you're making a valid point but your point is somewhat off the subject. OP was talking about learning songs. If your only goal is to learn the song either for a gig or as an exerecise to expand your skills, then every moment you spend getting there is time wasted.

The OP was talking about bad practice habits. I'm a newb bass player but long time drummer so take this for what it's worth, but I'm gonna go ahead and say spending at least *some* time learning songs by ear is not time wasted. Ear training was mentioned already. Plus not all gigs are about just learning a set of songs and playing them accurately. What about song writing with a band for example? I've done a ton of that (again as a drummer), and it's super valuable to have musicians that aren't lost without charts in that situation. And can roll with new ideas people are putting forth in real-time.

 

[BassGeekJack]

Respectfully disagree. Anything you can do to improve your ability to learn songs is beneficial. I agree that it should not be the only way you can learn a song - reading (in any form) is a huge benefit - but being able to learn songs by ear is good as well.

Using your little audition example as a basis, no, it should not impress anyone that you learned the audition list by ear. Who cares how you got there? But when you're there and they throw a curve ball at you: "Hey, do you know XYZ?" and you're able to say, "I've never played but could probably fake my way through it" - and do so - could be the difference between getting the job or not. You need to spend a lot of time doing ear training to be able either play a song you've only ever heard or pick up a song that you've never heard on the fly. I can play many songs (that I've never even heard of) competently by the third verse. That comes from spending a lot of time with ear training. That's what I do when I just want to play for fun - put on a Pandora station and just play with whatever pops up.

+1

I think that learning to play by ear has possibly been the most beneficial thing I've ever done, not only as a bassist, but as a musician in general. Contrary to your opinion, @shufflebass123 , learning by ear has significantly sped up my ability to learn anything. While yes, it is incredibly slow to start, as you get better and better, you'll pick up things faster, and probably even surpass the time it takes to figure out an inaccurate tab. Ear training has helped me to the point that I can predict chord changes if I've heard a song before but haven't ever played it. It's immensely helpful if a band wants to spontaneously cover something on stage or we are jamming or "writing" music (without actually writing it down).

I'm not saying any opinion is the correct one– just speaking from personal experience.