• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

ASCAP unlicensed venue-cancel gig?

L

LPStephens

May 16, 2010
34
0
#1
My band has a gig booked at a small bar. We were informed that they had a visit from ASCAP the other day. Apparently the venue isn't licensed. We were informed by the owner that ASCAP is planning on stopping out the day of our gig to see to verify the band is playing and told the owner she will be fined unless she pays. Seems the owner has been avoiding them for some time, but she has a "screw them" type attitude and wants us to play.

1. As a band, do we have any responsibility to check if a venue is licensed before booking a gig there?

2. Can ASCAP do anything to the band if we play knowing the venue is not licensed? Fine? Shut us down?

What would or could happen? Anyone run into this type of thing?

Any advice greatly appreciated.
 
#2
That's an interesting dilemma.

I don't THINK your band has any exposure in this situation but definitely don't take my word for that.

Does the bar owner know that your band knows the situation with ASCAP, and if so, is the bar owner still expecting your band to play?

I'm not sure how much power the ASCAP rep would have. I.e., if they would be able to shut you down. What I suspect would happen would be the ASCAP rep tells the bar owner to shut you guys down or be liable for a fine of ## dollars. I don't think the rep would be in-bounds to confront your band directly but again, don't quote me on that.

What I would be most concerned with is that the bar owner would go on and let your band play... and then take the fine out of your pay.

In any event, if the bar in question is skirting their obligations to ASCAP they're probably trying to skate on other things too so I would be very careful in any dealings with them.
 
#3
Yes, the venue owner told us about her visit from ASCAP. She's fighting the system and asked if we would still play.

My gut instinct tells me it could get ugly and who knows what will happen. She's always paid us in the past, but who knows how this will shake out. I'm thinking we just drop the gig to avoid any hassles, but I still want to know what ASCAP could do to the band, if anything.
 
#4
In the 10 years I have been playing in my area only one said they had ASCAP come in a say they would fine bands doing covers. That bar went to originals to get them to stay away.

I have brought the subject up from time to time with owners and mangers of clubs we play and most say they would show them the door and not pay or were not worried. Some said they felt was almost "Mob like" and would refuse to let them tell them what to play in their clubs. I don't know what could happen or whats really up but it's rare to see them in my area.
 
#5
LPStephens said:
Yes, the venue owner told us about her visit from ASCAP. She's fighting the system and asked if we would still play.
Click to expand...

Yikes. Even if ASCAP doesn't have any direct jurisdiction over your band, that still doesn't sound like something you want to get implicated in.

I guess it depends on how good of relationship you have with this bar owner and how much you want to continue playing there. If you cancel the gig you've probably burned a bridge there but on the other hand there may be even bigger negative long-term implications to going on with this gig as planned.
 
#7
xgator4u said:
HMMMM.
What does the gig pay ?
WHERE is this venue ?
Do you have a written contract ?
Do you have an hold harmless agreement ?

I suggest doing everything possible to CYOA ,
then determine if the gig is worth it.
Click to expand...

It doesn't pay enough to chance getting a fine or into a legal hassle.

Don't want to say exactly, central Wisconsin

No contract or paperwork. It's never been an issue in the past, but we are looking at having a written agreement with venues. It's the smart thing to do and we know that.
 
#9
LPStephens said:
It doesn't pay enough to chance getting a fine or into a legal hassle.

Don't want to say exactly, central Wisconsin

No contract or paperwork. It's never been an issue in the past, but we are looking at having a written agreement with venues. It's the smart thing to do and we know that.
Click to expand...

I was NOT looking for a street address, just general area, and size of area. B.F. Egypt town, or major metro city.
Remember C.Y.O.A. , if you don't, nobody else is going to.:bassist:
 
#11
I work for a music licensing firm that helps in the process of licensing music for a major TV network. I asked my boss this quite recently what the laws were regarding playing covers in bars/clubs/venues and he explained to me that a venue needs a performance license. The venue will pay ASCAP and/or BMI for the right to be able to use songs from their catalogues.

The worst thing that'll happen, is ASCAP asking you to stop playing for the rest of the evening and you might be "forced" to not play there until the bar has a license.
 
#12
jaywa said:
If there is ANY chance your band could be fined then I'd say drop the gig ASAP as the fine will very likely exceed your pay for the gig. And maybe the pay for your next several gigs as well.
Click to expand...

That's why I'm really hoping to hear from someone who knows what ASCAP can do to a band, if anything. Or is it strictly the venues responsibility?
 
#13
BaronVonHavok said:
I work for a music licensing firm that helps in the process of licensing music for a major TV network. I asked my boss this quite recently what the laws were regarding playing covers in bars/clubs/venues and he explained to me that a venue needs a performance license. The venue will pay ASCAP and/or BMI for the right to be able to use songs from their catalogues.

The worst thing that'll happen, is ASCAP asking you to stop playing for the rest of the evening and you might be "forced" to not play there until the bar has a license.
Click to expand...

Thanks Baron. We're not going to take the risk if she doesn't get the license. If she gives in and gets it, we'll keep the gig. I am curious if bands have any obligation or responsibility to check if a venue is licensed.
 
#14
Based on Baron's answer above, looks like the worst that could happen to your band is they get shut down for the night. In which case your only financial exposure is the money the bar owner may choose not to pay you (which would be a pretty crappy thing to do since she put you in that situation in the first place).

I think what I'd do in this situation is tell the bar owner we'd play the gig but we require full payment in advance because of the extenuating circumstances for this one.
 
#15
ASCAP's own rules say that the venue must obtain the license. They plainly state this on their website. The worst they could do is ask you to stop playing, but I doubt they would even do that. My guess is they would try to get the owner to tell you to stop playing. What is ASCAP going to do, fine you? How would they collect? Read their website, they are heavily on the side of musicians. Besides, how would ASCAP know that you knew the venue didn't have a license? Worse comes to worst, plead ignorance. I think you're worrying over nothing. I would not hesitate to play in a venue that did not have a license. That's the venue's business, not mine.

I would be much more concerned that A, if I did play, would I have to stop early and would that affect my pay, and B, if I canceled, would I ever get to play there again. If I were you, I would play but make sure I was still getting my full fee no matter when I may have to stop playing.
 
#17
You can't be sued, as a performer, by asscap, while performing...though I wish they could.
so, get your worry out of your panties.

Asscap, bmi, and sesac are the worst ****ing lowlifes, thugs, and pimps you'll ever have to deal with, if you open a venue.

They are not on the side of musicians, they are on the side of monied interests...

They can take your friend, the bar owner, to court, and tie her up with legal proceedings, for her information. The only thing that gets them hornier than shutting down a club via litigation, is...well...collecting fees AND shutting down a club via litigation.
 
#19
First of all, I'm virtually certain that a band has no legal liability in a dispute between a performance venue and a PRO. I personally would have no hesitation to play in a situation like that. But I'm not a lawyer. Music Attorney, here on TB, would be the guy to ask... :hmm:

the Arsonaut said:
Asscap, bmi, and sesac are the worst ****ing lowlifes, thugs, and pimps you'll ever have to deal with, if you open a venue.

They are not on the side of musicians, they are on the side of monied interests...
Click to expand...

I'm not going to get into a quibblefest about this...but I doubt that it's quite that cut & dried. As I understand it, the PRO typically represents the music publisher, who in turn - at least theoretically, reimburses the artist. Publishers have to get their revenue from somewhere, as do artists. This is a major source.

Of course, if an artist own his/her own catalog, then the artist - or artists - becomes the "monied interest". All the more reason to retain ownership and all rights to your own catalog - if you write, record & perform your own material... :hmm:

MM
 
#20
MysticMichael said:
First of all, I'm virtually certain that a band has no legal liability in a dispute between a performance venue and a PRO. I personally would have no hesitation to play in a situation like that. But I'm not a lawyer. Music Attorney, here on TB, would be the guy to ask... :hmm:
Click to expand...

I would be interested in hearing MA's perspective on that point. The fact that the PROs prosecute venues rather than bands seems to be a function of the way the PROs have developed and implemented their licensing schemes, rather than any limitation on liability imposed by the Copyright Act itself. The provisions in the Copyright Act defining what constitutes infringment with respect to musical works (specifically, sections 106(4) and 501) do not appear to limit infringement to venues to the exclusion of the bands that perform in those venues.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back