Ashdown little stubby "live".

[Old Ozzie Guy]

Hi all. Is anyone using an Ashdown "Little Stubby" 30 watt valve hd live ? What speaker boxs are U using? What style of music are U playing? Any thoughts will b much appreciated. Im thinking of little stubby (or an Ampeg PF50t) for my little trio (me-bass , drummer acoustic kit medium hitter, guitarist 20watt Marshall 1x12 combo - not full vol)
I'm currently using an Ampeg Micro VR hd with Hartke HiDrive 1 x12. It's loud enough.
Anyway, thanks all.

 

[grouse789]

Ive got the PF50T, I use it with the older 1990's Ampeg svt-15E and or SVT-210HE, kicks ass. I also have an American made Crate "Palomino 32". Its a 30 watt guitar tube amp. I disconnect the guitar speaker, and run the out to my 15E. fat tube tone(think Zombies "Time of the Season" song)

 

[Old Ozzie Guy]

Thanks, I'm toying with the idear of trying a Marshall origin 50watt (guitar) hd with sum bass speakers . It's great to hear U successfully using valve gtr amp for bass !!

 

[Wasnex]

I consider myself retired from gigging, but I own LB30 Mk1, LB30 Mk2, CTM 30 Little Stubby, and PF50T.

All four have their own tone and personality. The PF50T sounds 100% Ampeg as you might expect.

The Mk1 has kind of a 60s vintage sound. Sort of bloomy and it gets that old school distortion. It's easy to push both the preamp and output section into drive.

The Mk2 has bigger highs and lows. Sort of an 80's HiFi sound. The preamp stays clean, but you can easily push the output section into drive. The Mk2 has the least effective tone controls of these amps. The mid control, in particular, makes almost no difference.

The Little Stubby sounds most like the Mk1. It's a little leaner down low and not quite as loud. I think the Little Stubby has the most versatile and flexible tone controls of the Ashdowns. Also it's the only one of the Ashdowns that has a Gain control.

The Mk1 and Mk2 seem to have a bit more clean headroom than the PF50T. I think the Little Stubby and PF50T are about the same volume.

I bought all of these amps previously loved, so keep in mind that tube wear could influence the amount of power they make.

All of them sound fabulous but I wouldn't consider gigging any of them unless it was background music.

There are several people on TalkBass who gig these amps, so YMMV.

The most important thing to consider if you want max volume is the sensitivity rating of whatever cab you choose. Higher is better.

If you choose a cab with a 103dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating, the cab will make almost 118dB with 30W. IMHO this is barely loud enough for a lot of the gigs I used to do. It will get the job done, but I prefer more headroom.

If you choose a cab with a 97dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating, you need 4 times the power (120W) to produce 118dB. With 30W, this cab will only make about 112dB. Not even close to loud enough IMHO.

Keep in mind the Micro VR make over 259W at 4 ohms.

With a cab rated 97dB 1W/1m the calculated SPL with 259W is about 121dB. With a cab rated 103dB the calculated SPL is about 127dB. I am typically not willing to turn up this loud, even when wearing ear plugs.

 

[Old Ozzie Guy]

Thanks for your input wasnex, if I a box rated at 98.5 db (1w at1mtr) ,and I had 2 , would I b right to assume 2nd box would add 3db , bringing total of both 101.5 ? If both driven by 265watt hd , what would b end result (total spl?). I'm aware db is exponential, every 3db roughly double volume?
I'm thinking of maybe using stubby or PF50t as a pre amp into the line in of micro VR??
Am I chassing my own tail?
Sorry for all "Kookie" questions, IV been out of industry for a long time..

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks for your input wasnex, if I a box rated at 98.5 db (1w at1mtr) ,and I had 2 , would I b right to assume 2nd box would add 3db , bringing total of both 101.5 ? If both driven by 265watt hd , what would b end result (total spl?). I'm aware db is exponential, every 3db roughly double volume?
I'm thinking of maybe using stubby or PF50t as a pre amp into the line in of micro VR??
Am I chassing my own tail?
Sorry for all "Kookie" questions, IV been out of industry for a long time..

The decibel change for 1W to 265W is
Log(265/1) x 10 = 24.2dB.

Adding a identical cab in parallel doubles the power handling, cuts the impedance in half, and increases the sensitivity by approximately 3dB.

Calculated SPL = 24.2 + 101.5 = 125.7dB.

Keep in mind, the Little Stubby has to be plugged into a speaker or load box. The PF50T has an internal dummy load, so it can be run without a speaker.

You may be able to run the PF50T into the Micro VR. Try connecting it different ways to see what works best. I believe the outputs on the PF50T or supposed to be line level. Might work in the regular input with the 15dB pad engaged. Might be better in the Effects Return or Audio In jack on the front panel.

One potential problem is you may get a ground loop (hum).

 

[Old Ozzie Guy]

The decibel change for 1W to 265W is
Log(265/1) x 10 = 24.2dB.

Adding a identical cab in parallel doubles the power handling, cuts the impedance in half, and increases the sensitivity by approximately 3dB.

Calculated SPL = 24.2 + 101.5 = 125.7dB.

Keep in mind, the Little Stubby has to be plugged into a speaker or load box. The PF50T has an internal dummy load, so it can be run without a speaker.

You may be able to run the PF50T into the Micro VR. Try connecting it different ways to see what works best. I believe the outputs on the PF50T or supposed to be line level. Might work in the regular input with the 15dB pad engaged. Might be better in the Effects Return or Audio In jack on the front panel.

One potential problem is you may get a ground loop (hum).

Thanks for all that, especially the mathematics.., if I use either as a pre amp, I probably should just get a separate power amp, 300-400 watts a side..then I won't have to push all so hard, and will have 'headroom" ,

 

[KenD]

I didn't gig it live but I did own a Little Studdy, for a short while. IMO the EL84 is not a good output tube for bass guitar - not enough "heft".

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I consider myself retired from gigging, but I own LB30 Mk1, LB30 Mk2, CTM 30 Little Stubby, and PF50T.

All four have their own tone and personality. The PF50T sounds 100% Ampeg as you might expect.

The Mk1 has kind of a 60s vintage sound. Sort of bloomy and it gets that old school distortion. It's easy to push both the preamp and output section into drive.

The Mk2 has bigger highs and lows. Sort of an 80's HiFi sound. The preamp stays clean, but you can easily push the output section into drive. The Mk2 has the least effective tone controls of these amps. The mid control, in particular, makes almost no difference.

The Little Stubby sounds most like the Mk1. It's a little leaner down low and not quite as loud. I think the Little Stubby has the most versatile and flexible tone controls of the Ashdowns. Also it's the only one of the Ashdowns that has a Gain control.

The Mk1 and Mk2 seem to have a bit more clean headroom than the PF50T. I think the Little Stubby and PF50T are about the same volume.

I bought all of these amps previously loved, so keep in mind that tube wear could influence the amount of power they make.

All of them sound fabulous but I wouldn't consider gigging any of them unless it was background music.

There are several people on TalkBass who gig these amps, so YMMV.

The most important thing to consider if you want max volume is the sensitivity rating of whatever cab you choose. Higher is better.

If you choose a cab with a 103dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating, the cab will make almost 118dB with 30W. IMHO this is barely loud enough for a lot of the gigs I used to do. It will get the job done, but I prefer more headroom.

If you choose a cab with a 97dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating, you need 4 times the power (120W) to produce 118dB. With 30W, this cab will only make about 112dB. Not even close to loud enough IMHO.

Keep in mind the Micro VR make over 259W at 4 ohms.

With a cab rated 97dB 1W/1m the calculated SPL with 259W is about 121dB. With a cab rated 103dB the calculated SPL is about 127dB. I am typically not willing to turn up this loud, even when wearing ear plugs.

Yet, at full volume, every drum still hits much louder than you.

 

[grouse789]

Thanks, I'm toying with the idear of trying a Marshall origin 50watt (guitar) hd with sum bass speakers . It's great to hear U successfully using valve gtr amp for bass !!

I would not seek a guitar amp for bass. I just wanted to state, that it does indeed work. I literally pulled that crate amp off a trash pile. Cleaned her up, fed her some new tubes, and she sings. I keep the gain pretty low, and crank the volume. For 30 watts, it is very very loud. It really sounds great, and one day I aim to post sound clips of that amp, and the PF50T to see who can guess what amp is what.
If you can score a tube head cheap, or have one, why not try it?

 

[JFlo]

Ashdown also makes a rackmount CTM preamp now. Pricey, but you could run it into the power amp of your choice and never worry about power.

 

[Manticore]

I don't have a "Little Stubby," but I have used my CTM30 on a gig with a pair of SWR Henry Jr. cabs. I used it in a 10-piece wedding/corporate band at an outdoor gig. It was plenty loud enough to be heard on stage (I was on the opposite side of the stage from the horns, between keys and drums. Of course, there was full PA support. I also own a CTM 100 and a CTM 300 and a wide variety of cabs, but I rarely use an amp on stage. The CTM 30 that night was a very satisfactory experiment.

 

[Jefenator]

I use a Bag End S-15D with my 50W tube heads.
I think of it as my "wattage doubler / quadrupler".
I usually try to avoid dweebing out on spec's, but the 103dB sensitivity seems noteworthy here. Most cabs are in the high 90s, some in the lower 90s which is usually not an issue when I have hundreds of watts of solid state power to spare. But when I'm trying to play out with wattage in the double digits, I find I need all the help I can get.
On this blues gig, with drums, piano, harmonica & two guitars I actually turned my 50W amp down!

It was a tiny room and we were trying to play down to the unamplified piano. (Group restraint will also be an important factor.)
That old ceramic Bag End cab is no featherweight, but I find it is a lot more manageable than my old 100 watt tube head.
I've used the line out for large systems and even my own small PA. (My powered mains are rated 1000 & 2000 watts and they don't seem to mind handling a bit of bass guitar. Enough to help that 50W amp punch well above its weight.)

 

[Ögon]

I am a bit confused to read that some say the "Ashdown Little stubby 30" is loud enough for gigging.. I tried it with 3 cabs at home (separately to test wich cabs i liked) , all 8 ohms. I had to crank it until 3 o clock + all tone controls on full to get a decent normal just above "practice on your own" volume. I could have added more gain, but that would make it overdriven/farty.. (if you like that, maybe go for it) With a drummer or a full band, it would be a joke, it would drown completely. I am really curious how other people get more volume out of it? I am curious what i did wrong? (i guess?? )

I also tried the Ampeg PF-20, MUCH, MUCH more volume and much more low end.. the stubby didnt have much low, almost no subs, it was mid focused..

Like others have already said, you can let the Ashdown Little Stubby 30 OR Ampeg-PF-20 cooperate with the Ampeg VR. Also an option. But then you need to carry 2 amps, and you would need a LOAD BOX to convert the speaker out to a LINE signal.

If you don't own both yet, my advice would be to skip the Ashdown and get the Ampeg PF-20t or 50t because it has a really good balanced DI out (includes the powertubes!!) sounds really good.

If i had to choose, pick the PF-50, it has nice mid control..

 

[Wasnex]

IMO the EL84 is not a good output tube for bass guitar - not enough "heft".

IMHO the tube type is not responsible. My Mk1 LB30 has tons of heft. The Little Stubby is far leaner. The LB30 is slightly fatter than the Little Stubby.

 

[Wasnex]

View attachment 5009500

Yet, at full volume, every drum still hits much louder than you.

To get a more accurate understanding of how this works, there are some other things we need to consider.

The graphic says Concert = 110dB and I am claiming 30W into a 97dB 1W1/m speaker produces 118dB. This suggests 30W is plenty. What is not being said is the sound is loudest close to your speaker and decreases by 6dB for each doubling of distance. The 118dB is measured at 1m.

Here is the progression:

1m/3.3' = 118dB
2m/6.6' = 112dB
4m/13.1' = 106dB
8m/26.2' = 100dB
​

Another consideration is our ears do not have have equal sensitivity across our hearing range. Our ears are most sensitive to high mids. For equal perceived loudness, frequencies below 100hz have to be way louder than high mids.

The Fletcher Munson curves show this.

A phon is a measure of perceived loudness, VS a decibel which is a measure of actual loudness. Notice the phon level equals the dB level at about 1,200hz, but at other frequencies they are not equal.

What this chart shows is the ear is most sensitive at about 3.5khz-4khz, and it is far less sensitive at low frequencies. For equal perceived loudness you need higher SPL at low frequencies (especially frequencies under 100hz).

For example, you need about 127dB at 60hz for a perceive loudness of 120 phon. At 1khz 120dB is perceived as 120 phon. At 3.5khz you only need about 105dB to produce 120 phon.

For the record 300W into and 810 produces calculated SPL of about 125dB at 1m (think Ampeg SVT and 810). 100W into a 412 loaded with Vintage 30s produces about 126dB (think Marshall half stack. So the guitar is actually louder and Fletcher Munson makes the perceived difference even larger.

 

[Ögon]

IMHO the tube type is not responsible. My Mk1 LB30 has tons of heft. The Little Stubby is far leaner. The LB30 is slightly fatter than the Little Stubby.

Interesting.. The Little Stubby and the LB30 both have the same amount of tubes.
Both have: 1 x ECC81, 1 X ECC82, 2 x ECC83 preamp valves and 4x EL84 power tubes. So why the volume difference?

 

[Old Ozzie Guy]

Thanks all for all insights

 

[Wasnex]

Interesting.. The Little Stubby and the LB30 both have the same amount of tubes.
Both have: 1 x ECC81, 1 X ECC82, 2 x ECC83 preamp valves and 4x EL84 power tubes. So why the volume difference?

Could be the tubes in my Little Stubby are weak, but comments seem to suggest others may be having the same experience.

 

[KenD]

IMHO the tube type is not responsible. My Mk1 LB30 has tons of heft. The Little Stubby is far leaner. The LB30 is slightly fatter than the Little Stubby.

Yes, I should have been more precise. In that implementation in Little Stubby I found the EL84 lacking heft.