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Asking fellow bass players for feedback
- Thread starter MaurizioTorchio
- Start date
A couple of comments:
- All the exercises seem to use scalar runs only. That is boring to the ear, and also makes it easy to “cheat” when reading. Some 3rds, 4ths, and other jumps would help.
- More musical content would help. Rhythms, interesting melodies, and articulations would make for a better learning and playing experience. These would then move away from mere scale exercises and more in the realm of etudes.
Hi smeet, yes lot of scales I'm afraid. I've got to work on that. In general it needs more variety.
Thank you for your input!
Maurizio
Thank you for your input!
Maurizio
Also, the lines you propose seems musically disconnected from any particular genre. It would be more interesting, from the musical point of view, if you would propose lines that are representative of a given genre: e.g., jazz walking bass, jazz two-feel, blues, funk, bossa, bluegrass, afro-cuban genres, etc.
Furthermore, in view of all the excellent material that is available elsewhere on the net (either for free or with subscription), you would need to think of some material that has something really unique and original. You don't want to offer some content that is sub-par.
Furthermore, in view of all the excellent material that is available elsewhere on the net (either for free or with subscription), you would need to think of some material that has something really unique and original. You don't want to offer some content that is sub-par.
Hi, I thought about it but then with the videos people will not read.
And I mean "read" as in "find a way to play this thing". For the same reason, I left out tempo markings, articulation, dynamics and fingerings. I try to encourage every student to use their creative side.
As for "proper position", I suppose my age will show because I'm firmly convinced that only a competent teacher, in person, can help you with that, no matter how many videos one has seen.
Thank you!
Maurizio
Thank you Papageno, you are right, styles are a thing to consider. I intend to work on that.
Something unique and original, you say. Probably, but I will be happy if someone finds the material useful.
I'm working to make the thing a bit more user-friendly
Lot of good suggestions and comments here.
Maurizio
I see a lack of purpose in the exercises. Exercises usually have a purpose or objective. The objective can be anything from learning the notes in a position or on a string, learning the notes of a scale, reading enharmonic equivalents and development of left-hand posture/fingerings to shifting, intonation, right-hand posture, dynamics, articulation or nuances of timing or phrasing.
Without a clear purpose or objective there is no way to know when you are done with an exercise, if and how to modify it, where to go next or even when to go back over something.
YMMV.
Without a clear purpose or objective there is no way to know when you are done with an exercise, if and how to modify it, where to go next or even when to go back over something.
YMMV.
Hi SteveCS, yes, I guess that is the main problem.
I'm adding some explanation to each exercise.
I've started from the first rhythm exercise
Now it looks like this:
How is it?
Does it make more sense?
Thank you!
Maurizio
I'm adding some explanation to each exercise.
I've started from the first rhythm exercise
Now it looks like this:
How is it?
Does it make more sense?
Thank you!
Maurizio
Sorry to be harsh, but as other here have also pointed out, what is missing is a clear and well-thought concept.
An absolute beginner should not work simultaneously on string crossing and on his/her ability to create interesting rhythms, in particular without receiving any guidance by means of examples and progressive steps. You're not going to teach rhythm to beginners by telling them "here are your open strings, go ahead and practice rhythm". That does not make any sense. To give you some example of what in my view is a good pedagogy of rhythm, just have a look at Ed Friedland's book "Bass Grooves".
Making something useful from what you have shown here cannot be achieved with quick fixes. You would have to inject a lot more work into it.
An absolute beginner should not work simultaneously on string crossing and on his/her ability to create interesting rhythms, in particular without receiving any guidance by means of examples and progressive steps. You're not going to teach rhythm to beginners by telling them "here are your open strings, go ahead and practice rhythm". That does not make any sense. To give you some example of what in my view is a good pedagogy of rhythm, just have a look at Ed Friedland's book "Bass Grooves".
Making something useful from what you have shown here cannot be achieved with quick fixes. You would have to inject a lot more work into it.
I would move away from leaving it up to the user to come up with their own ideas. If the objective is muting for rhythm, write it out as such. For example, here is the same 2-octave scale repurposed for shifting with extended fingering, dynamics and articulation...
Noting your comment about TAB earlier on...
There are times when TAB really is useful.
This next one is intended to develop alternate plucking in the right hand. See how the left and right fingerings overlap, covering the same ascending scale and arpeggio segments with reversed right-hand fingering - leading first with 'i' and then with 'm' in both directions.
Here, the first and second section are essentially the same thing, but the different left-hand fingerings are essential to the objective of the exercise because they place the string crossings against different right-hand fingers. TAB seemed like the clearest way to illustrate the point. It is not as easy at it looks, especially to someone trying to 'break the rake'...
Don't worry, I can take it
However, I really would like to understand.
I teach music to children in kindergarten and elementary schools, and also electric bass to older students.
I see it everyday. Children love to improvise, older bass student fear to make mistakes.
Still, I don't see how it is pedagogically bad to ask a bass beginner to improvise some rhythms on one string or on four.
I really like this conversation Papageno, let's continue the discussion.
Maurizio
However, I really would like to understand.
I teach music to children in kindergarten and elementary schools, and also electric bass to older students.
I see it everyday. Children love to improvise, older bass student fear to make mistakes.
Still, I don't see how it is pedagogically bad to ask a bass beginner to improvise some rhythms on one string or on four.
I really like this conversation Papageno, let's continue the discussion.
Maurizio
Sure, I'm happy to chat about it too.
Improvising is definitely something one needs to have anyone to work on, including beginners. We agree on this. But I think it is better to get them started with simple examples, which they may then use to produce their own variations on some rhythmic ideas. And in a next step, they can start using more complex rhythmic ideas. Progressivity is the key word. The scope of every lesson/exercise should be clearly stated, and as mentioned by someone above, one would need a way to assess when an exercise is mastered so that one can proceed with the next one.
You don't teach people to swim by throwing them into the water a kilometer away from the shore. They would drown; and for those who do survive, it's just that they did not need any teaching in the first place.
Chi va piano va sano e va lontano...
Improvising is definitely something one needs to have anyone to work on, including beginners. We agree on this. But I think it is better to get them started with simple examples, which they may then use to produce their own variations on some rhythmic ideas. And in a next step, they can start using more complex rhythmic ideas. Progressivity is the key word. The scope of every lesson/exercise should be clearly stated, and as mentioned by someone above, one would need a way to assess when an exercise is mastered so that one can proceed with the next one.
You don't teach people to swim by throwing them into the water a kilometer away from the shore. They would drown; and for those who do survive, it's just that they did not need any teaching in the first place.
Chi va piano va sano e va lontano...
Thank you SteveCS!
Interesting exercise the second one. Your own?
I'm afraid I don't agree with your view of "move away from leaving it up to the user to come up with their own ideas."
That is exactly the main goal of these exercises.
I can't help it. I grew up with the "Improvisor's Bass Method". For me practicing an exercise means to come up with your ideas.
Thanks again!
Yes, all my own. I've hundreds of them, but they are focussed and specific, and usually conceived to address some technical problem or illustrate a musical idea or concept. Here's an extract from one aimed at learning the basic triad and selected 7th arpeggii built on a given bottom note, in this case 'C'. It goes on to cover all notes 'in the bass' There are three main aims, 1) to develop left hand dexterity and posture, 2) to train intonation (I'm a fretless player) and 3) to hear the differences and improve chord recognition by ear...
you are rightI guess I have to get used to the medium, i.e. internet.
In live lessons, one on one or group, I always give many examples of whatever we are practicing, then I ask students to invent their own. And also, knowing each student, I give different tasks to different students.
Internet is another game.
Years ago, I read in "The Art of Piano Playing" by Heinrich Neuhaus, that the teaching method, the program, in his opinion, should be not too difficult for the normal piano student nor too easy for the genius.
But here we don't know who is reading.
You may say: well it is the same for books!
Yes, and I bet everyone here has in his music library a book too difficult for him next to a book way too easy, hence boring. I know I do.
There is probably a sweet spot to find.
I thought, here is the whole concept, that by not saying too much everyone could find something.
This is a great one! Piano players practice arpeggios in this fashion but for some reason bass players don't. Very useful.
In this case you have the student to come up with his own fingering?
I now understand what you meant. Focused and specific.
I agree that background information explaining each is important.
Another thing I will say is that Tablature Is becoming the more common way to write music for all guitars. While I have no problem with notes, it would be prudent to assume that instructional materials are most likely to be read by, and benefit newer players. Many newer players learn tabs before they learn the clefs, so including both would be helpful. As an example of the various levels of understanding music theory, most modern musicians only know two clefs, Treble clef, and Bass Clef. there are actually 9 clefs. when writing for others don't assume very much about what the reader does or does not know. since I play baritone as well as bass I sometimes like to write in the baritone clef but wouldn't expect others to know the clef by heart..
Thank you bass theory, you raise an interesting point.
Tabs are of general use, I know. I've probably lost some students for not using them.
But then I'm sure many students choose another teacher because I don't use the thumb and the other guy does.
Others choose another teacher because he plays the string bass too, and I don't. And I'm sure many choose another teacher simply because they don't like me. Nothing wrong with that.
See where I'm going? I just don't use tabs
Thank you for your input!
Maurizio
I guess I have to get used to the medium, i.e. internet.
In live lessons, one on one or group, I always give many examples of whatever we are practicing, then I ask students to invent their own. ...
If you are trying to teach improvisation, why not create some exercises that illustrate some of the principles of variation. How to develop a motive or theme without churning out musical gibberish. Take a simple idea. Play it forwards, backwards (retrograde), upside down (inversion), rotated (retrograde inversion). Make studies that apply modulation or syncopation.
Introduce rhythmic variation but in a controlled manner. Just adding a single dot to one 1/4-note in a measure, or splitting one into 2 1/8ths, can change the entire character of even the simplest arpeggio. Some make more music sense that others...
Firstly, these are for my own use, so no students involved. The thing with fingering is that it is a means to an end, not an end in itself. So it must be developed in context. Here's another extract from the same exercise that connects the ascending and descending arpeggii with something a bit more interesting. Only triads this time...
