Assigning numbers to notes

[AndyMopley]

Hi all

I am trying to figure out if the attached is correct, so that when I transpose the line, I can refer to the numbers as a guide (understanding that the ear is king).
The concept of 1 3 5 7 #9 etc. is clear to me when it comes to chords, and some patterns are easy to assign numbers to, however I am unsure if what I have done is a) correct and b) the best way to do it (eg it is appropriate, pragmatic or applicable to do).
N7 stands for natural 7th in this example. The G7 bar I can transpose and understand better than the Dm7.

Thanks!

 

[SteveCS]

I don't know the reasons for doing this, but it doesn't matter. If I were having to do the same task, I would stick to the more formal interval names, so only Diminished, Minor, Perfect, Major and Augmented. So your #7 becomes ^7, and the N7 becomes m7. And to begin with I would qualify everything, so the 6 in bar 2 is ^6 (or M6, if you prefer). Also, the A at the start of bar 1 is the 5th of Dm, which if you are counting it as an extension, is 12, not 13: F that follows is m3/10, not 11.

 

[AndyMopley]

I don't know the reasons for doing this, but it doesn't matter. If I were having to do the same task, I would stick to the more formal interval names, so only Diminished, Minor, Perfect, Major and Augmented. So your #7 becomes ^7, and the N7 becomes m7. And to begin with I would qualify everything, so the 6 in bar 2 is ^6 (or M6, if you prefer). Also, the A at the start of bar 1 is the 5th of Dm, which if you are counting it as an extension, is 12, not 13: F that follows is m3/10, not 11.

Thanks, and yes, you are correct, the 13th of the Dmin chord in this example is B.

 

[Les Fret]

I don’t think I would go higher than the octave with the numbering if it comes to scales. What would you name it if it goes higher than the 13? And what octave is the root?

 

[mambo4]

I ignore anything above a 7 when marking such things as well.
It's not too hard to convert 2:9, 4:11, 6:13 in my head
If I need to think more harmonically.

 

[Wasnex]

Hi all

I am trying to figure out if the attached is correct, so that when I transpose the line, I can refer to the numbers as a guide (understanding that the ear is king).
The concept of 1 3 5 7 #9 etc. is clear to me when it comes to chords, and some patterns are easy to assign numbers to, however I am unsure if what I have done is a) correct and b) the best way to do it (eg it is appropriate, pragmatic or applicable to do).
N7 stands for natural 7th in this example. The G7 bar I can transpose and understand better than the Dm7.

Thanks! View attachment 7389867

Why start with 13. IMHO in terms of chord intervals, the A in the first bar is a 5th. The F in the first bar is mislabeled; it's a 10th or 3rd.

There are various ways to think of this and all of them get messy.

The rest of this may or may not be helpful .

Accidentals are used in chord notation. This is necessary/useful shorthand, but it causes confusion on various levels when you start discussing intervals. For example let's consider the Dom7b9 chord shape. The 9 in this chord shape is minor. In the case of G7b9 the minor 9 is an Ab; so b9 makes perfect sense. However in the case of F#7b9, the same chord shape, the minor 9 is G natural, rather than Gb.

One way to avoid this potential discontinuity:
When discussing intervals, there is no such thing as a natural 7. 7 is major, minor, augmented, or diminished. The tone you marked as N7 is a minor 7. The interval translates to minor 7 in all keys, but it's won't be a natural 7 in all keys.

The tone you marked as #7 is a major 7.


If the point is to transpose this line across keys, I think you would probably relate the intervals to the prevailing key center rather than the chords. The full scale: 1, 4, and 5 are either perfect, augmented, or diminished. If these intervals are not identified as augmented or diminished, they are assumed to be perfect. 2,3,6, and 7 are major, minor, augmented, or diminished.

I would say this is clearly in C major. So the first four notes (A,F,E,D) are 6,4,3,2---then we get to the dilemma of how to treat the C# and C natural so that it translates to all keys without causing confusion. If you are writing out the numbers perhaps ^1,6,1,6. Use the ^ for the altered (raised) tone. Since the second 1 is diatonic, perhaps you don't need to write anything. This is not consistent with the rules or standard notation, but with notation the accidentals don't translate across keys.

 

[mambo4]

I'll add that in my head " 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 " are by default the major scale intervals and I only note deviations from that.
If the key is minor I still mark the deviations " 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 "
What you write as "#7" I would just think of as "7"
But, that's just how I do it. I find it less ambiguous.

Of course "what scale tone is this?"
is not the same as "what chord tone is this"

It's not completely clear to me which of the two you are analyzing.
Numbers above 7 imply chord tones, to me.

 

[AndyMopley]

Thanks all. To explain further...If someone were to say to me "This lick is based on using 1, b3, 4 and 5 notes" - I would then instantly able to transpose this to ANY key - the objective of my initial question with the related example.
This works on most occasions, except when the notes used are as per the first bar (in the example).
Hence, as some of you suggest, it may be better to simply think in terms of intervals, when transposing.
Thanks again.

 

[mambo4]

If someone were to say to me "This lick is based on using 1, b3, 4 and 5 notes" - I would then instantly able to transpose this to ANY key

I'll reiterate : "what scale tone is this?" is not the same as "what chord tone is this?"

So if If someone were to say to me "This lick is based on using 1, b3, 4 and 5 notes"
I'd need to clarify if notes are

• 1, b3, 4 and 5 relative to the key, OR
• 1, b3, 4 and 5 relative to the current chord

There is an default implication (to me) that it's the current chord
But I have experienced (and used) both ways of referring to intervals.

It's one of the main ambiguities when englishing numbers at music

 

[SteveCS]

Thanks all. To explain further...If someone were to say to me "This lick is based on using 1, b3, 4 and 5 notes" - I would then instantly able to transpose this to ANY key - the objective of my initial question with the related example.

I do think the distinction being drawn by @Wasnex is an important one to understand. If you are playing the chord tones of the mediant (iii) chord in a major key would you enumerate the notes as they relate to the each other in the harmony, i.e. 1, b3, 5, 7, or 3, 5, #7, 9, i.e. relative to the key and scale degrees?

 

[wompwomp]

I ignore anything above a 7 when marking such things as well.
It's not too hard to convert 2:9, 4:11, 6:13 in my head
If I need to think more harmonically.

this isn't a critique or a challege just a bit of self-observation:

I would find it difficult to ignore the difference as I suspect the octave doesn't actually repeat in a harmonic sense.

so I agree with you but not necessarily the idea of the interchangeability of 6:13 to borrow your example.

i'm not sure quite what OP is communicating with notating this in sheet music, that said I would probably be inclined to think in those terms (like I would use the 13 etc)

 

[mambo4]

LikeI said “ what scale tones are these” is not the same as “ what chord tones are these” it depends on what angle of understanding I’m after. Both are useful things to know. Perhaps “ ignore any number over 7.” Is too absolute