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At the risk of sounding ignorant...

Jon Moody

Jon Moody

Sep 9, 2007
5,309
4,977
Kalamazoo, MI
www.justmoody.com
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Endorsing Artist: Eventide, GHS Strings, G&L Guitars, NS Design, Tsunami Cables
#1
I'm looking into getting a pair of IEMs for myself to use instead of relying on whatever the theatres I play in have. I've done a lot of reading online and on TB, but this question still dumbfounds me. Any input is appreciated.

Is there any difference in quality of sound between a pair of dedicated IEM earbuds and a good pair of full range earbuds (as in, ones used for casual listening)?
 
#3
Little leery of an article that states "some of this may not be correct" right at the beginning, but it had some good information, thanks.

I guess my question is that, since many of the $200+ range "earbuds" are really consumer IEMs (that are marketed as earbuds), is there an actual difference between using some professional grade IEMs (from Westone and others) at a gig or just a really good set from Bose that I grabbed at Best Buy?
 
#4
As a bass player the benefits can't be overstated for getting custom molds regardless of which drivers you choose. The bass response improves tremendously as does the ambient noise rejection, which should be greater than 24dB.

And if you ever decide to go "all out" with your in-ear setup, go to the IEM godfather himself, Jerry Harvey - Invalid Link Removed
 
#5
Well, that's the thing. I don't need noise canceling properties that much, because I'll be using them mainly to hear the actors and actresses, or a click track. Both of which do not really have any of the instruments through the IEMs, or at a very low level.
 
#6
Definitely do not need or want that much reduction. In both of my situations, the IEMs will be used in addition to ambient sounds (used either as just vocal monitors or for a click track). I'm assuming some of these places that make custom IEM molds can vary the db reduction much like custom molded earplugs?
 
#8
They're huge. Getting them professionally molded is a big difference. The Bose and Klipsch high end buds are cool for rocking out to music but for live venues you might want to step it up a notch. It's also not a purchase that you have to make a million times. Just get a pair and you're set for a while. Keep 'em clean tho.
 
#9
One Bad Monkey said:
Definitely do not need or want that much reduction. In both of my situations, the IEMs will be used in addition to ambient sounds (used either as just vocal monitors or for a click track). I'm assuming some of these places that make custom IEM molds can vary the db reduction much like custom molded earplugs?
Click to expand...

It is common practice to have an ambient mic (or mics) on stage to feed the IEM mixes so you still have a good sense of what's going on around you.

I don't think the dB attenuation can be adjusted like with custom earplugs because there's no attenuation filter involved, just the mold and the drivers. But I've never asked about it so there might be options I'm not aware of.
 
#10
In a theatre environment, ambient mics aren't that common. Any ambient sounds that are in the monitor mix are usually ones that bleed through drum or horn mics.

I will check to see what my options are in regard to db reduction with molded earpieces. Because if there aren't options, I can use an actual set of earbuds to fit my needs.
 
#11
A note of clarification on ambient mics: they aren't routed through the FOH mix or through any of the monitor wedges that might be in place. They are only for IEM mixes. In fact, many wireless IEM transmitters have a second input so you can plug in your own ambient mic right next to you and blend it with your monitor mix.

A note about IEMs or earbuds: the better the unit seals around your ear, the better the bass response. Also, the better the seal, the better the ambient noise rejection. The "problem" with most earbuds is that they don't really seal and the air gaps ruin the bass response, which causes the manufacturers to artificially hype the response to compensate. It's akin to using on-ear versus over-the-ear headphones in the studio.
 
#12
I am familiar with ambient mics, and at the theatres that I'm going to use this in, they don't have them; any ambient sound is unintentional bleed through.

So really, for me and my needs and situation, I'm leaning towards regular earbuds at this point. If I can't hear what's around me in addition to what's in my earbuds (which again, is mainly vocals or a click track), then it doesn't matter how nice they are; they aren't doing the job I need them for.
 
#15
walker rosewood said:
There are models of IEM's with ambient mics built directly into the earpiece. That seems pretty common to me, but I've never heard of putting a mic on stage somewhere for that purpose.
Click to expand...

There are? That would work; do you know of any specific models?

I have heard (and used) an ambient mic on a live stage many times prior in my rock band days.
 
#16
Since you're playing in a pit band for theatre, it's a different environment than a live rock band on stage. What are you looking for from the IEMs - Hearing yourself more clearly in the concrete bunker most pits sound like - hearing other parts of the band (probably keys) - hearing the actors better from the stage - all of the above?

Is this a solution you're trying to implement independent of the theatre's sound system/sound designer/board op?

If most of what you need to hear is already there and you just need a little more 'you' in the mix, you might consider a different approach and try one of these:
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Or since you probably sit rather than stand in the pit, one of these:
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It will give you the feel of extra thump without making you louder in the pit or the FOH mix. I've even had bass players sit on their amp to get the same effect but they lose some of the mids.
I've done a fair amount of live theatre sound and even though these days we run a ton of wireless mics (just finished a *high school* production of Elton John/Tim Rice's "Aida" where we used 18 channels!) the monitor mixes often suffer because either the venue doesn't have a decent mixer - A 12 channel Mackie with a whopping 2 pre-fade aux sends (whee!) or they don't have the physical infrastructure (cable plant, amps, speakers) to put multiple monitor mixes in the pit or on stage. For a production of "Chicago" I commandeered a theatre's assisted listening system to use as IEM's for the music director, keys, bass, and drummer because the band was on stage instead of in the pit. We couldn't easily re-route the monitors from the pit because everything was hard-wired and having loud vocal monitors on stage for the band during rehearsals was a feedback nightmare.
 
#17
I know what you mean; the high school production of Hairspray that I did in February (which was in Theatre 2, below) had 22 wireless mics on stage.

My situation is like this:

Theatre 1: have a couple IEM systems that the MD owns. We'll be on stage (doing Chicago, ironically). They run the actors through it and keyboards (since they don't use amps), with a couple of personal monitors for drums and horn players. Hearing myself isn't an issue; the PJB stuff shines in a pit environment in that I can turn it up and it's not boomy but still has the definition. So, I can keep the amp at a level that I can hear it and the soundguy still has control over the FOH and the stage.

The current IEM that he has are the earpieces that have the foam inserts. They never stay in. I used a pair of $20 Sony on-ear headphones for half of the run last year (3.5 weeks, 6 shows a week) and they worked alright. Not ideal or comfortable, but they stayed put as I was switching between electric and upright.

Theatre 2: They run a click track. The click track is the only thing going into the headphones. They have really crappy headphones that we use. Again, no need to hear myself through the monitors, or anyone else. The entire pit (which is usually 20+) is in a separate room, all mic'd and DI'd.

In both situations, instruments (aside from keyboards) will more than likely not be in the monitors; just voices or a click track. The need for ambient sounds from around me is therefore extremely important. Wearing one earbud in and one out isn't something I like doing, mainly because it's uncomfortable for me.

So, that's where my initial question of "is there really a difference between the really nice consumer earbuds (which are really IEMs but marketed differently) and the actual professional IEMs" came into play, because for my situation, I can't really see a difference. Nothing will be completely isolated and run through the monitors, just vocals at one place and a click track at the other. I will still need to hear ambient sounds, because many of the other instruments with me will not be run through the IEMs, just a mic for FOH (if they need it).
 
#18
One Bad Monkey said:
Definitely do not need or want that much reduction. In both of my situations, the IEMs will be used in addition to ambient sounds (used either as just vocal monitors or for a click track). I'm assuming some of these places that make custom IEM molds can vary the db reduction much like custom molded earplugs?
Click to expand...
If you don't need a lot of isolation because there isn't a loud band around you to tame, and just using them to hear voices, no way I'd spend hundreds of dollars on custom IEMs. You should be fine with any in ear earbuds.

I use Atomic Bass 2 earbuds by Radius. They're around $30, have tons of bass response, bass sounds like a bass. They have lots of isolation though too, so maybe too much for you.

You might be better off with the standard consumer earpieces for the ambient sounds. But they typically sound like crap on the bass.

Afraid you'll have to choose between ambient sounds and bass response. Pretty much require a good seal for bass, and that blocks out ambient sounds.

Randy
 

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