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Audio Interface in effects loop
- Thread starter yakmastermax
- Start date
Yes, you’re trying to record guitar and not getting a good result running an interface in the effects loop. I gather you’re trying do this with the equipment you have on hand.
Close mic, isolate amp and use headphones to monitor: a million and one electric guitar recordings have been done this way. Why try to reinvent the wheel?
Or, look into reamping. Another well trodden method.
So you’re trying to add the processing from the computer to the guitar sound you’re hearing in the room as well as record the guitar to computer while you’re at it ?
If there is tone suck, it’s probably due to impedance issues, not because of the interface itself.
No, he's trying to record the guitar direct via the effects send, and use the guitar amp as a monitor for what's in the computer via the effects return. The cab isn't being recorded, it's just a playback monitor.
The goal, presumably, is to use the existing gear they have on-hand rather than purchasing a DI box which would be the correct tool for this job.
So “what” is he trying to monitor through the guitar amp ?? If it’s just the guitar as it’s being played That should be possible without connecting anything to amp FX return. I’ve never come across a guitar or bass amp that’s output is muted when something is connected to only the FX send.
I guess we need clarification here from OP ,
Presumably all of the other stuff going on in the session. Perhaps there's drums, keys and vocals in the session and they're attempting to overdub guitar onto those parts and don't have another monitoring solution. Clarification would be helpful.
This has been covered repeatedly earlier in the thread; Due to the OP's attempted monitoring scheme a microphone will not work.
Yeah I was wondering if that was the case. If so , not a good plan monitoring all that through a guitar amp and speakers not going to sound good.
No that isn't what we're doing. That would add latency, require AD/DA conversion, and isn't necessary.
No, that also isn't what we're doing. Once again, "using the guitar amp as a monitor for what's in the computer" implies that we're actually monitoring the DAW track, which would add latency, and require AD/DA conversion.
It would not be possible without closing the effects loop unless we just didn't care about the guitar effects pedals, but we do. We want to hear the effect of the guitar effects pedals both in the recording (which is why we're putting the interface at the end of the effects loop right before the return), and we also want to hear the effects of the guitar effects pedals in the live mix, which we aim to supply by using the guitar amp as the "guitar channel" monitor.
1) We're running low on mics. We've got 3 vocal tracks, trumpet, the drum kit, other guitars etc.
2) We're already struggling with bleed as it is. The goal is to get as close to truly individual tracking as possible while still capturing everything in a single take, in a single room, without 6 pairs of headphones and the corresponding setup.
Not sure where you got the idea that we we're running the entire DAW mix back into the guitar amp and using that as a monitor for the entire mix. I explicitly said earlier in this thread that we're not monitoring ANYTHING from the DAW.
OKAY:
I'm still trying to find an answer to my original question, which is whether or not you guys are surprised or would expect the 18i20 to cause tone suck in addition to overall volume loss when the interface is placed at the end of a guitar effects loop with the input to the interface coming from the last pedal in the loop, and the line out (firmware programed to simply take the assigned input and pass it through, NOT MONITORING THE DAW, NO AD/DA CONVERSION GOING ON AFAIK), then going to the effects return.
Why we're trying to do with this really isn't a necessary question to answer before answering my original question, but Talkbass has always been an inquisitive bunch so here goes.
We're trying to capture something similar to those nice "live studio session recordings" that are pretty popular these days. Similar to a "board" recording that they often do at BIG shows where they just record the mixer board output. The key things here are individual tracking of each instrument for that studio separation and crispness of sound, however all done in a single take with no overdubbing, so as to capture that "magic" of the "live" interaction between the musicians, improvisational elements etc, and collective/emergent dynamics. The kind of audio recording that could be put on top of a single take video for a music video or similar.
We all need our own "monitoring" of our instruments to achieve this, and we don't all have in ear systems and we're not doing this on a big stage where EVERYTHING is going through the PA. This is being done in a jam room. The only things going through the PA are the vocals and the keys. The horns are acoustic monitoring, but mic recorded, and the guitars and bass are being monitored by their respective amps, but are being recorded. Due to bleed issues and lack of mics, I wanted to try a sort of DI setup for the guitars. My bass amp has a fine DI.
The drum kit is being close mic'd with low gain dynamic mics.
We aren't trying to monitor any software effects. We aren't trying to monitor anything in real time from the DAW. We are only trying to monitor the way any band would monitor for any live show/performance in the case that they weren't using a big house PA/stage monitor setup, or in ears, IE, amps for the guitar and bass, acoustic for the horns, smaller PA that acts as monitor as well for the keys and vocals.
Does that clear things up?
From the 18i20 manual:
"but Focusrite Control also allows you to route these signals internally within the device to the outputs so that you can monitor the audio signals with ultra-low latency - before they arrive at your DAW, should you need to do so."
"The Scarlett 18i20, in conjunction with Focusrite Control, allows “zero latency monitoring”, which overcomes this problem. You can route your input signals directly to the Scarlett 18i20’s headphone outputs. This enables the musicians to hear themselves with ultra-low latency – i.e., effectively in “real time” – along with the computer playback. The input signals to the computer are not affected in any way by this setting"
This is the manner in which I'm using the interface for monitoring, but it also can record simultaneously.
"but Focusrite Control also allows you to route these signals internally within the device to the outputs so that you can monitor the audio signals with ultra-low latency - before they arrive at your DAW, should you need to do so."
"The Scarlett 18i20, in conjunction with Focusrite Control, allows “zero latency monitoring”, which overcomes this problem. You can route your input signals directly to the Scarlett 18i20’s headphone outputs. This enables the musicians to hear themselves with ultra-low latency – i.e., effectively in “real time” – along with the computer playback. The input signals to the computer are not affected in any way by this setting"
This is the manner in which I'm using the interface for monitoring, but it also can record simultaneously.
Ok I get it better now , I see what I missing , I didn’t catch you were also using the fx loop for some pedals so yeah that what you need to close the loop. Makes sense to me know. Sorry for any confusion on my part I picked up on some other posts misread of the details and got further confused.
Ok so here’s why I think you’re guitar most probably right about there being some “tone suck “ when it’s hooked up this way. You’re going through a/d/a conversion and there’s probably some impedance or voltage mis match’s going on as well as not all amp FX loops are created equal and audio interfaces ins and outs aren’t really built with interfacing guitar amps FX loops in mind. Then if the level coming back is reduced from what it normal is it’s going to hit the power amp different and that can change the tone and / or volume.
So really the best option is still what you don’t want to hear… either mic the cab or get an RNDI or Darkglass Element or Countryman 85 DI that can take a direct signal of the amp and still pass signal to the speaker cab. It’s by far the best way to capture the time and performance.
You could out the pedals in front of the amp and just use the send on the loop for recording and not ask pedals. Those would capture the FX in the recording as well as hear in the room but changing where you out pedal in the amp signal chain will change how the sound and react and your guitar player may not want to do that understandably. Especially if he used high gain amp distortion.
You could try a Y splitter cable splitting the signal from the last FX pedal in the loop so one half goes to interface and the other to the loop return. This might work but this might also cause either a volume / tone drop and or ground loop buzz. Then again it might not. It’s cheap to try or you could see if anyone has an pedals with stereo outputs you split the signal that way. Something like a BOSS LS-2 or similar.
Hope this helps give you some ideas.
That's what I was thinking. If they aren't having ground loop issues with how they are trying it now, this shouldn't either.
Also, yes, level differences can absolutely create the appearance of tone changes.
As I and others have tried to explain to you: the reason for the tone-suck isn't latency or conversion. It is a given mismatch of impedance levels (HZ/Instrument level vs. line level). Get a cheap DI-Box.
Which output from the interface are you running back into the FX loop of the amp?
Shouldn’t matter, but just out of curiousity, what else is running through the interface when you’ve got it hooked up to the guitar amp?
I have an use an 18i20, so take this for what its worth- you're doing it wrong. Yes, there is tone suck, because of the way the ear hears things (Fletcher Munsen Curve) so VOLUME is just as much part of the tone as the actual timbre. Isolation is your friend. See if you can grab a couple office cubicle divider walls and set them up to isolate the guitar amp a bit, or point the amp as much as possible away from the other mids with a moving blanket over it, or use an amp sim for the scratch tracks and rerecord the guitar later. I get what you are doing, and why you are doing it, but at soem point, it becomes pissing up a rope.
