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Audio Interface in effects loop

yakmastermax

yakmastermax

Mar 1, 2015
671
444
33
Boulder Colorado
#1
Hello!

Today at rehearsal we tried to record the guitarist by putting my Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 at the end of his amps effects loop, then using the line out from the Scarlet to send the effects return back to the amp.

The guitarist claimed that it was sucking tone. I did hear it suck some volume, but shouldn't we be able to remedy that by just turning the output up and turning the amp up?

Would you expect it to suck tone? The Scarlett 18i20 is supposed to be a pretty nice piece of equipment. I would be pretty surprised if it were actually sucking tone.

What do you guys think?

Thanks!
 
#2
Are you trying to use the Scarlett as an effect? Why are you using it in the loop? What are you trying to achieve?

Does the amp have a SLR out? That is what you should use if you are recording. If you do use the effect out, don't loop the return from the Scarlett back through the amp. That makes no sense.

What model of amp are you using?
 
#4
I can total see the interface causing a tone suck , you’d be going through and A/D , D/A conversion and audio interfaces aren’t really designed to be in an amps FX loop.
You could just connect the send from the FX loop to the interface to capture a signal but this will only give you the preamp sound of the amp not the power amp and speaker which are important in a guitar sound but you could add sims to emulate like Two Notes Wall of Sound or similar. Or the easiest / best option might be to just stick a mic in front of his speaker cab.
 
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#6
yakmastermax said:
Right on! Yeah we were trying to work a DI on a budget as we're having an issues with mic bleed!
Click to expand...
Understandable. If you want a Direct amp feed look at something like a Two Notes Cab M Or Captor X or the Darkglass Element. You could also get a Neve RNDI to capture the amp direct & add cab emulation in post.
 
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#7
You could also use a DI with a speaker level input (like a Countryman 85) to capture the full output (pre and power) of the guitar amp into the 18i20.

I hear that your on a tight budget, but used 85's are pretty affordable and they are built like tanks and last pretty much for ever.

good luck
 
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#11
Are you sure that connecting just the FX send on the amp will defeat the power amp from sending sound to the speakers ? This isn’t typical FX Loop behavior. FX loop sends are often also used to drive additional power amps/ heads for more volume , different speaker combinations etc ..
plugging into only the FX loop return with out having the send loop or another preamp bringing in signal will usually result in no sound.
What model of amp is your guitar player using ?

Have you tried connecting just the send to your interface ?
 
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#13
yakmastermax said:
The Scarlett is just being used to record. The amp doesn't have a direct out. It does make sense to loop the 18i20's output back to the effects return, if one wants to use the guitar power amp and speaker as the monitor, which is what we want.
Click to expand...
Alrighty then. Well, it really doesn't make sense to expect good sound that way. You can't expect much out of the sound from the effects return played back through a bass or guitar amp. Focusrite's and other interfaces are meant to be monitored by good near-field monitors or a good set of headphones. What you are hear coming back from the return is - in a way - gibberish. Not to mention the latency issues noted above. Interface you have is an awesome one. Just not meant for what you are trying to do the way you are.

You will have trouble mixing for sound that way. Good luck.
 
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#14
TigerInATrance said:
It would be better to close mic the cabinet
Click to expand...
The OP's intention is to use the output from the interface to go back into the effects return so that the guitar amp can act as a monitor while simultaneously recording the input signal through the effects send. If he did this the result would be that the material already in the computer being pushed to the amp would get recorded by the mic along with the guitar tone, and both would end up on the guitar track in the DAW which would possibly cause a feedback loop.

Ultimately the OP's methodology may work, but IME it's a case of using the wrong tools for the job. The tools may be sufficient if the needs aren't that critical.
 
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#15
yakmastermax said:
Hello!

Today at rehearsal we tried to record the guitarist by putting my Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 at the end of his amps effects loop, then using the line out from the Scarlet to send the effects return back to the amp.

The guitarist claimed that it was sucking tone. I did hear it suck some volume, but shouldn't we be able to remedy that by just turning the output up and turning the amp up?

Would you expect it to suck tone? The Scarlett 18i20 is supposed to be a pretty nice piece of equipment. I would be pretty surprised if it were actually sucking tone.

What do you guys think?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Is the effects-loop line-level or instrument level? Do you use the Scarlett's HZ-input or line-level input?
Latency shouldn't be a problem, but non-matching levels are and degrade sound in a significant way.
Some guitar amps have a line-level effects loop meant for studio effects. Pedals (that mostly have instrument-level inputs) shouldn't be used in line-level effects loops, they should be used in front of the amp.
If(!) the effects loop is HZ-level(instrument level) the problem is that you could use the HZ input of the Scarlett, but the Scarlett doesn't have an instrument level output, just line level. This would be a mismatch with the loop expecting instrument level.

I would use a cheap DI-box for 10,-. The parallel output goes to the effects or after the effects to the amp. The XLR out goes to one of the mic-inputs (!) of the Scarlett.
Fame Audio DI-1 | MUSIC STORE professional | de-DE
 
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#17
Thanks for all the input guys!

As with a lot of us on here, I'm both the bassist for the band, as well as the recording guy, sound guy, mixer guy, mic guy, cable monkey, PA schlepper etc...It is a good time!

On the topic of latency and quality sound, the whole idea here was to avoid using an cabinet sim in the DAW then running that output to the PA because that is how you end up with REAL latency, not to mention IMO inferior sound to what the guitar amp produces by itself.

The guitar amp in question is a Bootlegger Blues 15/30 6L6
I don't know if the effects loop is line level or otherwise.

The goal here was to send the guitar into the input of the amp, take the effects loop output of the amp and send that to all the effects pedals, take the output from the last pedal and send it to the interface where it can be recorded and colored with a cab sim in the DAW, then use one of the near zero latency outputs of the 18i20 to send the signal to the effects return where it can then go to the power amp.

I saw near zero latency since no processing is happening and since the signal should be heading to the line level output before it goes to the DAW. You program the 18i20 outputs in a sort of firmware manner using the focusrite control software, and once these outputs are "firmware" programmed, the interface functions as a mixer even if the DAW isn't running, which is why it really shouldn't have any latency because there shouldn't be any AD/DA conversion going on. In fact the focusrite literature advertises as much.

Anyway, I guess a cheap DI box would be helpful. At this point I'm more just curious as to whether or not I can determine if actual tone suck was going on by the interface (IMO there shouldn't be since otherwise the interface would be a pretty poor live studio/show recording tool), or if it was just overall signal attenuation and resulting volume drop and the guitarists ears and mind playing tricks on him.

To my ear, I only heard volume loss, no "tone suck" or other frequency dependent attenuation. Yes there is some ego involved here, but I'm trying to get you all involved to minimize that!

Thanks for the help and conversation!
 

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