Double Bass Audio Systems. How do we listen to music?

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Being able to setup a cartridge goes a long way.
also, I've got friends with very modest turntables and their records are on par with cds in their system.

In my experience, tonearm quality is a significant factor; particularly the quality and adjustment of the bearings. If there is any significant play in them surface noise, sibilance and mistracking errors will be amplified through the bearing chatter. That, and attention to matching the effective mass of the arm to the cartridge compliance yield huge rewards. It doesn’t have to be expensive if one knows what to look for and will consider used gear.

 

[TroyK]

Let's also not discount the thrill of the hunt. I'm going to be in Portland this weekend and I'm scouting record stores on-line in advance.

They are my happy place.

 

[turf3]

Y'all who are LP advocates ought to read your own posts about all the details of the playback equipment that have to be optimized to get that superior performance out of the LP. Then consider that the $100 CD player playing the standard commercial CD delivers nearly the same output, and does it with zero fiddling with the equipment, zero care of the storage medium, and with as near zero degradation with time and successive playings as makes no difference.

I say again, I'm willing to grant that immaculately-cared-for LPs, played on high end equipment (and I accept the judgement that it doesn't have to be expensive if you know what to look for and how to set it up properly - after all, my electric bass is a $150 Squier), sound better than a standard commercial CD played on standard commercial equipment. (And the amp and speakers and room are assumed to be the same, here.) But the real world of playing LPs for people who want to listen to the music rather than working with the equipment, when the LP was the standard, was to play the LP on one of those Sears turntable/amp combos through some small speakers that came with the system, using the cartridge and stylus that came with the thing, and to occasionally wipe the record down with a soft cleaning rag. Also the real-world-typical LP being played on this equipment was the record you bought for $6.99 at the big record store or the grocery store or the Sanger-Harris record department, produced to the minimum specs that would allow it to play semi-reliably, not a high quality pressing.

Oh, don't forget stacking four or five records on the spindle and having them drop down on top of each other, plus occasionally the little steel finger that pushed them to the side to drop down would misfire and slide over the top of the disk - that can't have been good for the records.

In that real world, that I and most other people inhabited, the world where people were not really interested in the details of their record player, just wanted to clap the record on the thing and have music come out, the CD was a great step forward. Clear sound, no hisses pops crackles, sounds the same the 100th playing as the first, if it gets dirty it might skip but it won't be harmed, no maintenance required.

I was there, I remember.

It's a lot like folks who romanticize a 1965 automobile. Well, again, I was there, and I remember 10,000 mile spark plug changes, constant carburetor adjustment, the points were NEVER set just right, and the stench of gasoline whenever you passed; the thing ALWAYS either ran too rich or too lean. With all that you were lucky if you could wring 20 miles per gallon out of it, and the engine was generally worn out by 120,000 miles, but if you lived north of the Dixon Line it was rusted out long before that anyway. You can argue that the driving experience was "purer" and "more contemplative" but if its 3:00 in the morning and I'm standing in a sleet storm with the hood up trying to get the thing to run so I can get to work at 7:00, I'm gonna trade that '65 for a 2020 Honda so fast your head'll spin.

 

[JBarz]

Ya’ll are all wrong (except for Keith, who also misses minidisc, the real king of all formats) : First generation iPod was the pinnacle of music delivery format.

I remember being in college and being AMAZED that I could share friends’ life-time’s worth of albums with the aid of a big external hard drive.

I’d like to also propose here that, as with all things in this life, the experience is primarily influenced by set and setting rather than delivery format. I get higher quality distraction free listening time in my $6k Costco-special hot tub’s super crappy Bluetooth speakers streaming off my phoney than my $10k+ hifi system playing clean vinyl.

It’s not about the vibrations in the air, imho, it’s about how your brain interprets and processes them. You can’t buy your attention, awareness, or focus at the (now defunct) hifi store.

My music room (with my hifi system) has all my instruments, computer, phoney, my kids in and out, etc. You can guess what kinda quality listening time I get in there… Give me a Walkman and zero distractions every day of the week, and a happy man I’ll be.

 

[turf3]

Ya’ll are all wrong (except for Keith, who also misses minidisc, the real king of all formats) : First generation iPod was the pinnacle of music delivery format.

I remember being in college and being AMAZED that I could share friends’ life-time’s worth of albums with the aid of a big external hard drive.

I’d like to also propose here that, as with all things in this life, the experience is primarily influenced by set and setting rather than delivery format. I get higher quality distraction free listening time in my $6k Costco-special hot tub’s super crappy Bluetooth speakers streaming off my phoney than my $10k+ hifi system playing clean vinyl.

It’s not about the vibrations in the air, imho, it’s about how your brain interprets and processes them. You can’t buy your attention, awareness, or focus at the (now defunct) hifi store.

My music room (with my hifi system) has all my instruments, computer, phoney, my kids in and out, etc. You can guess what kinda quality listening time I get in there… Give me a Walkman and zero distractions every day of the week, and a happy man I’ll be.

This is exactly right!

 

[Jason Sypher]

Ya’ll are all wrong (except for Keith, who also misses minidisc, the real king of all formats) : First generation iPod was the pinnacle of music delivery format.

I get higher quality distraction free listening time in my $6k Costco-special hot tub’s super crappy Bluetooth speakers streaming off my phoney than my $10k+ hifi system playing clean vinyl.

Ok. Minidiscs were magical. The players were like jewelry. Beautiful.

I agree that a Bluetooth speaker and a beautiful girl on a beach in Greece can be a more profoundly joyful experience than a 20k system at home. But a great system with a great glass of wine is life-affirming as well.

 

[Jazzdogg]

One thing I know for sure: neither cassettes nor eight-track tapes were worth a darn to me.

 

[turf3]

One thing I know for sure: neither cassettes nor eight-track tapes were worth a darn to me.

Cassettes went bad after a couple years; eight-tracks went bad after a couple playings. LPs just got hissier and poppier, usually. The only thing cassettes were ever good for was playing in the car, where the road noise keeps you from hearing fine quality anyway (although when the cassettes went bad and it was all bass mud, you couldn't listen to them even in the car), but the car tape decks were even more prone to jamming and snarling than the home decks. Once the automobile CD player came, the cassettes lost their last usefulness.

 

[JBarz]

You’re wrong about cassette usefulness, at least for us players and students, imho. Two words: transport controls. Scrubbing back a couple seconds to transcribe a tough lick is a PITA with CDs.

My Nakamichi ZX- 9 cassette deck records at CD quality (if not superior). Cassettes are endlessly editable musical sketchbooks. Quality degrades after a year? Re-record it! I hate CDs. I don’t know how you’re keeping yours, but all my CDs are virtually unplayable at this point. My player is temperamental and doesn’t abide any scratches or wear, though. You cant jog or climb with a portable CD player, either

 

[Gurnmagic]

Over 20 years ago I decided to concentrate on building 2 hifi systems:
a revealing system and a forgiving system. That’s proved to work really well. I don’t have the funds or the room for crazy expensive speakers and components to get the perfect system for all types of music.
Revealing system in the B/R:
‘81 Spendor BC1’s
Rotel RA870 Integrated
Sansui TU717 Tuner
Rega P5 with Dynavector 10x5
Cambridge Audio Dacmagic
Rotel Transport
Audioquest cables

Forgiving system in dining room:
‘67 AR-4x’s
Kenwood KA-9100 Integrated
‘85 AR The Turntable with Shure V-15 type V
AR-XA Table with Shure M91ed
Project Pre-Box S2 Digital
Kenwood Tuner
Marantz CD Player
Rotel Cassette Deck
Audioquest Cables
Some thoughts: Choose amps with good over-built power supplies. Dual-mono makes a difference, I think. And don’t spend a lot of money on this stuff: my most expensive speakers and amps are sitting in the basement.

 

[Jason Sypher]

You’re wrong about cassette usefulness, at least for us players and students, imho. Two words: transport controls. Scrubbing back a couple seconds to transcribe a tough lick is a PITA with CDs.

My Nakamichi ZX- 9 cassette deck records at CD quality (if not superior). Cassettes are endlessly editable musical sketchbooks. Quality degrades after a year? Re-record it! I hate CDs. I don’t know how you’re keeping yours, but all my CDs are virtually unplayable at this point. My player is temperamental and doesn’t abide any scratches or wear, though. You cant jog or climb with a portable CD player, either

I just use a slow downer program. Pitch adjustment, speed adjustment, looping…I think it’s the best thing that’s ever happened. Tapes can do none of that and play out of tune and time…

 

[turf3]

I don’t know how you’re keeping yours, but all my CDs are virtually unplayable at this point. ..

That's probably the player, not the discs. I read up on this a while ago, something about the degradation of the laser or the lens.

 

[TroyK]

Y'all who are LP advocates ought to read your own posts about all the details of the playback equipment that have to be optimized to get that superior performance out of the LP. Then consider that the $100 CD player playing the standard commercial CD delivers nearly the same output, and does it with zero fiddling with the equipment, zero care of the storage medium, and with as near zero degradation with time and successive playings as makes no difference...

No...and yes.

My sanctuary is my basement. I've done my best to make it comfortable and warm sounding but it wasn't engineered to be a recording studio.

My mid-fi system is equally capable of playing LPs, CDs, or Streaming.

The iPod was a game changer. I took everything with me, shared and copped albums from friends, listened to deep cuts on long flights, and "learned" songs on set-breaks. No doubt that is a major limitation of vinyl.

Once set-up, my turntable doesn't need to be fiddled with. It needs a new stylus every 3 - 4 years. My CD player sometimes has trouble reading CDs. CDs go in the car, but they also get scratched up and that effects the playback.

Streamimg is as big of a game changer as the iPod or bigger, despite the fact that it will hurt artists. I don't like having to have a subscription to everything. I don't have to to stream music, but ads degrade the experience and quality is higher if I do. I pay for basic Tidal and sometimes use Spotify or Pandora free versions as if they were radio, ads and all, because they help me discover new music.

But, sitting and listening...LPs are king AND WORTH IT TO ME.

I don't feel the need to have everything on vinyl, but Dexter Gordon - One Flight Up? The interplay between NHOP and Art Taylor? Life affirming and essential.

Soul Station, Maggie's Back In Town...

When it's worth it, it's worth it.

 

[JBarz]

I just use a slow downer program. Pitch adjustment, speed adjustment, looping…I think it’s the best thing that’s ever happened. Tapes can do none of that and play out of tune and time…

I tried those programs in their early iteration when I was a kid, but felt/feel like they’re kind of cheating and come at a cost. The gestural quality of an idea can be lost at a different metronome marking than originally stated or intended, imho. This is/was from the perspective of a saxophonist, though, not a bassist. (But I assume the same concept applies.)

That's probably the player, not the discs. I read up on this a while ago, something about the degradation of the laser or the lens.

I think you might be right and I appreciate the lead. I’m playing an early Nakamichi CDP 2A with the da converter chip that is the cats PJs - when it works. (It does, just crazy sensitive.)

im going to look into changing out that laser as a summer diy project - my Aebersold books are getting dusty.

 

[Deleted member 394181]

67 AR-4x’s
Kenwood KA-9100 Integrated
‘85 AR The Turntable with Shure V-15 type V
AR-XA Table with Shure M91ed
Project Pre-Box S2 Digital
Kenwood Tuner
Marantz CD Player
Rotel Cassette Deck
Audioquest Cables
Gurnmagic
Great! You should get, and i always recommend, an EQ for your system. Also, great headphones matter. I love Beyer Dynamic.

 

[rebellovw]

One thing I know for sure: neither cassettes nor eight-track tapes were worth a darn to me.

Yeah - 8 tracks no way - and cassettes - just throw out - but I will say the time of cassettes (70's/80's) was a great time - man the recordings sounded great (equal to the album) and the process or ritual of recording a record (demagnetize and clean heads, set the level, open a fresh TDK or Maxell) - was very fun. Kind of like taking a picture with a 35mm camera.

 

[turf3]

No...and yes.

My sanctuary is my basement. I've done my best to make it comfortable and warm sounding but it wasn't engineered to be a recording studio.

My mid-fi system is equally capable of playing LPs, CDs, or Streaming.

The iPod was a game changer. I took everything with me, shared and copped albums from friends, listened to deep cuts on long flights, and "learned" songs on set-breaks. No doubt that is a major limitation of vinyl.

Once set-up, my turntable doesn't need to be fiddled with. It needs a new stylus every 3 - 4 years. My CD player sometimes has trouble reading CDs. CDs go in the car, but they also get scratched up and that effects the playback.

Streamimg is as big of a game changer as the iPod or bigger, despite the fact that it will hurt artists. I don't like having to have a subscription to everything. I don't have to to stream music, but ads degrade the experience and quality is higher if I do. I pay for basic Tidal and sometimes use Spotify or Pandora free versions as if they were radio, ads and all, because they help me discover new music.

But, sitting and listening...LPs are king AND WORTH IT TO ME.

I don't feel the need to have everything on vinyl, but Dexter Gordon - One Flight Up? The interplay between NHOP and Art Taylor? Life affirming and essential.

Soul Station, Maggie's Back In Town...

When it's worth it, it's worth it.

Look, I do hand-tool woodworking as a hobby. I understand the value of the experience of doing things slowly.

But I can tell you that if you need to frame a house, and you need it done right damn now before the spring rains start, you get a power chop saw and a compressor and a bunch of nail guns.

 

[TroyK]

Look, I do hand-tool woodworking as a hobby. I understand the value of the experience of doing things slowly.

But I can tell you that if you need to frame a house, and you need it done right damn now before the spring rains start, you get a power chop saw and a compressor and a bunch of nail guns.

Um...sure...you lost me.

No matter, we consume recorded music differently. It's all good. I realize that the way I prefer isn't necessary, I just enjoy it and it's worth it to me.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I jumped on the CD bandwagon around 1984-85 with a Sylvania player I could afford and Phillips made good stuff. As much as I expected perfect sound, CDs didn’t always deliver due to the low bitrate converters in use at the time which resulted in harsh, cold high frequencies. Classical music was most affected. Still, I bought hundreds of CDs and the technology eventually improved so that CDs began to sound much better. I still stream a lot of music and am content with the audio quality.
A lot (probably close to half) of my vinyl albums cost about a buck each and there is a lot of vinyl that never made it into the digital realm. If it did, chances are it’s close to $10. As much as any other factor, I improved my analog rig to get more out of bargain vinyl and discovered that there is a lot of music in those old grooves. I’m curious to know, are there any good used CD stores around? Funny, I bought a new car and it doesn’t have a CD player………….

There is a reason vinyl never got killed off.

 

[Don Kasper]

I’m curious to know, are there any good used CD stores around?

These guys are good - in Burbank, CA.
(I Am Not The Mayor Of Burbank.)
https://www.atomicrecordsla.com/