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B15 DIY Phase Inverter Issues

coco53

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Jul 20, 2015
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Trinity Amps Inc
Hello, Im new here! I am trying to find a technical description of the Ampeg B15 Phase Inverter. The original one that uses 6SL7s. I'm wanting to understand it because I have one in my DIY B15 (Heritage style) that is a point of distortion. I read that some people went as far as changing it out for a long-tailed -pair design. Can anyone help?

This picture is the waveform at the intersection of the 510K and 470K that connect to the PI plates. Low signal level too.

image.jpg
 
That's an oscillation issue, I would suggest that studying the overall phase response of the circuit within any global feedback that is applied should give a good hint as to where the problem is. For a portion of the circuits operation, enclosed within the global feedback, it's likely that the gain is greater than one where the relative phase approached 0 degrees. The frequency of the feedback may give a hint as to where the problem might be. It's a pretty straight forward circuit.
 
The guy best suited to help you is probably napping right now, but in the meantime, he wrote and compiled this collection of really great info on the Portaflexes that might just have what you're looking for.

Category:Ampeg Portaflex wiki - TalkBass Wiki
Thanks. I went through that and it's excellent. Just ntohing on this type of issue. (or at least I didnt find it).
 
That's an oscillation issue, I would suggest that studying the overall phase response of the circuit within any global feedback that is applied should give a good hint as to where the problem is. For a portion of the circuits operation, enclosed within the global feedback, it's likely that the gain is greater than one where the relative phase approached 0 degrees. The frequency of the feedback may give a hint as to where the problem might be. It's a pretty straight forward circuit.

Appreciate the reply. Yes the circuit is simple enough but it's not the first time I've had a PI issue with it. The PI design is straight Ampeg. No changes. Using 10K feedback on 16 ohm tap. V3A, produces a clean wave. But this signal appears at the junction of R26, R27 and C16 and so also on V3B plate.


image.jpg
 
Is the signal completely clean at the pre out jack?

What happens if you increase R36 to say 15 k?

Have you checked to see if there might be signal leakage and cross coupling of signal through internal wiring?
 
I Will try and report back. In the meantime, here is a shot of the PI area, parts and wiring.

- retouch the ground points

- move some wires (i.e. chopstick around)

- try different make of tube

- 15K feedback R36 (and 5K as well)

- Put 50pf from V3 pin 4 to ground (and 150pf, 250, etc.); maybe V3 pin 1

- Check that the signal is completely clean at the pre out jack

- Check see if there might be signal leakage and cross coupling of signal through internal wiring
 

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Because it's a DIY thing I suppose this oscillation issue is a matter of suboptimal layout respectively wiring.

A proper placed (smallish) C should eliminate this issue. And I just remember that a certain type of Marshall amp showed similar plate oscillation issue at the preamp section.
 
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These designs are pretty well behaved. This PI was used in radios long before Ampeg adopted it.

This is one of these issues that is much easier to solve in person.

Out of interest, I would put the output through a spectrum analyzer and identify the offending frequencies are.

I would first try different tubes, NOS 6SL7 if you have them. I've found some 6SL7's that will oscillate. If you can, try a makeshift shield over the tube. The proximity to a transformer might be inducing an oscillation.

Although you are using a 10K feedback resistor off a 16 ohm tap, the output transformer and speaker come into play. Try clipping on a small valued capacitor parallel to the feedback resistor R36. Try around 1000pF (0.001uF) and see if it changes anything. If it does try different capacitor values and see how they affect the circuit.

They changed the PI plate voltages in the various B-15N revisions over the years. In the B-15NA, pin-2 was 310V, pin-5 was 309V, in the NC it was 235V and 225V, in the first Heritage it was 200V and 192V. The other voltages in the amp remained more or less constant.

Check under your board with a mirror. Look for a small solder bridge or a wire out of place. As was mentioned, capacitive coupling might be an issue. The board might be an issue but this is probably a long shot. The components are well spaced in your image. Pay close attention to the board mounting post (is it metal?) relative to the turret next to it.

See if it oscillates with a dummy load in place of the speaker. I like to isolate the speaker jack from the chassis (Switchcraft S1028 and S1029 washers). Try grounding the speaker return where the PI circuit is grounded. Ampeg's traditional ground bus works very well. It runs from the isolated power supply caps to the input jacks. The ground to the chassis is at the input jacks. This avoids ground currents in the chassis that can interact and induce noise in wires above them. Multiple ground points are fine if done properly.
 
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Thanks for all the help. I think I made progress as for results so far. I will try some of the other suggestions as well.

- retouch the ground points - no change
- move some wires (i.e. chopstick around) - no change
- 15K feedback R36 - 15K reduced the oscillation by about 50%; whereas 3.3K on 4 ohm tap (Heritage design) made it worse
- Put 50pf from V3 pin 4 to ground (and 150pf, 250, etc.) - 50pf eliminated it at 1K, but at the lower frequencies it returned. Tried 180, 360 and 500pf. The higher values eliminated the oscillation and did not seem to adversely affect the frequency responses. I left 500 pf in there for now
- Check that the signal is completely clean at the pre out jack - Not until I added the grid cap. Fine with the current 500 pf.
- Check see if there might be signal leakage and cross coupling of signal through internal wiring. - Not that I could detect.
- I still need to try a different make of tube and B 'n T suggestions. For that, I will need to disconnect the 500pf cap.

Except for the departure from the original Ampeg PI design, I don't see a reason to remove the 500 pf cap. Any comments on that "patch"?
 
A proper placed (smallish) C should eliminate this issue. And I just remember that a certain type of Marshall amp showed similar plate oscillation issue at the preamp section.

various values worked from 50pf - 500pf . Smaller values were less effective at lower frequencies. Currently have 500pf in there which seems to not significantly affect freq. response.
 
I'd spend some pF C pinned from plate to gate to change (means eliminate) condition for Miller oscillation.

So, you mean connect a pf cap from Plate to Grid, rather from Grid to ground, as I have?
BTW, I did this on the 2nd half of the PI triode pair. Would you suggest I put a cap from Plate to Grid on the same triode?
 
Right, as you already recognised C feeding to ground has no sufficient effect.

Actually 50pf eliminated it except at lower frequencies. Higher values eliminated the oscillation across the spectrum so I left 500 pf in there. Maybe its just masking it, not "eliminating" it.

I will try your suggestion and see how that works.
 
Some more test results:
- a 50 pf cap across the plate to grid was effective in removing the oscillation and not aversely affecting Freq. Response
- a .001 cap across the 10K feedback resistor was also effective in removing the oscillation. It may roll of the high end before the other pf cap solutions
- using NOS Tung Sol; tried Old Stock Russian, no real change
- using a 8 ohm dummy load doing my tests.
- speaker jack is grounded to the chassis
- there is one ground point (like Ampeg), but it all terminates at the power end/rear of the chassis

So, thanks to the help I got here (thanks very much) I seem to have three ways to remove or eliminate or deal with the issue.
1. 500 pf cap from Grid to ground
2. 50 pf cap from Grid to Plate
3. .001 uf cap across the 10K feedback resistor.

Would the 50pf from Grid to Plate be the preferred solution? It is a very clean answer.
 
Good that you resolved the issue.

All these solutions are seen in amps. I don't know if there is a preferred solution, they all have tradeoffs. When oscillations occur, designers sometimes throw in caps as a solution. In an effort to tame oscillations, you also see plate to cathode cap, grid to cathode cap, and a cap parallel to the plate resistor (often seen in high gain amps).

If you look at the Fender 5F6A schematic, there is a 47pF cap running plate to plate in the LTP PI. This cancels high frequency oscillations. A value between 50 and 100pF works on the 5F6A and similar tweed era amps.

At higher frequencies the Miller Capacitance comes into play. This will affect how the amp deals with harmonic frequencies. You might find this of interest: What is Miller Capacitance?

BTW. I suggested the cap parallel to the feedback resistor from the OPT because this is in keeping with what Ampeg did in a number of their amp designs.
 
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Thanks. Seems like a reasonable Ampeg consistent thing to do (.001 cap on 10K NFB). Didn't know they did that. But as you mentioned the Miller Capacitance, maybe it would be worth it to try a 100R, 1K, 10K, 100K on the grid pin 4.

Thoughts on using a grid stopper?
 
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Try 22k as the feedback resistor.
If this works, I would expect a cap across the feedback resistor to make things worse as it should decrease stability unless it alters the frequency response too.

I think there is too much feedback for the available phase margin.