Backline Rigs

[bucephylus]

Sigh.

The more things remain the same, the more they change. Or, I’m burned out on GAS; or something like that.

First, I’ve discovered how to get the most out of the QSC K series PA speakers / monitors. Using a good pedal board preamp into one of the QSC boxes produces stellar bass tones and plenty of volume for stage mixes, while simultaneously acting as a monitor mix from FoH. Great. The one issue I’ve yet to solve is that the QSC boxes require the line level balanced XLR feed for best performance; but, there are impedance matching issues trying to send the same signal to the board. But. I digress.

Increasingly, the Sound Engineers at my gigs do NOT want high volume coming from the backline.

I have acquired relatively high performance back line gear over my playing time, and have been reluctant to move those components on. They sound amazing. Some of it needs to go; but, which parts?

There ARE still certain gigs, which call for a significant backline. But, they do seem fewer; and trying to figure out the balance makes my head hurt. I detest selling a reliable piece of gear, and then having a gig turn up, which calls for it. Also, some of my festival gigs are staffed by different Sound Engineers; and they do have different back line prefs. So, there is the additional challenge of showing up with the right gear.

I feel like we are in a “tweener” phase. Too many different solutions. I suppose one possibility is to trade my car in for a van, and just keep everything in the van. But, I’m not that “committed,” it seems.

EOR

 

[klokker]

Too many options shouldn't be a problem in a market driven society. And it makes total sense why a sound engineer wouldn't want the backline interfering with the mix. Don't stress it man, keep your gear for when you need it. Sounds like you have all the bases covered.

 

[pbass2]

I still think it's wise for a working bassist to have a "regular" bass rig, preferably something modular speaker-wise. I can't see needing more than 2x12"s for pretty much anything though these days. I certainly used to run bigger!

 

[Adjectives]

Agreed. I've got my ideal setup that I don't foresee changing anytime soon, My Magellan 800 has a great DI if the sound person wants to go that route. More power to ya! My 212 cab makes a great monitor or sound system in and of itself. Down to a 4 pedal setup on my board so I'm modular, loud and prepared for most eventualities.

That being said, my buddy has a birthday show coming up with some friends' bands, Since I know everyone I offered my rig for the backline all night.

I'm TOTALLY bringing both 212 cabs to a small dive bar for ***** and giggles. Gonna be epic!

 

[Pings Bass]

For my money I like having a front-end rig that can go both DI to FOH and mons and into any backlined amp (either FX loop in or instrument in). Lately I've needed my little MB200 head/neo 112 cab, even though I prefer ampless. I'll throw the amp in the car if there's no backline amp or I'm unsure about the PA/mons situation

 

[shoot-r]

Sigh.

The more things remain the same, the more they change. Or, I’m burned out on GAS; or something like that.

First, I’ve discovered how to get the most out of the QSC K series PA speakers / monitors. Using a good pedal board preamp into one of the QSC boxes produces stellar bass tones and plenty of volume for stage mixes, while simultaneously acting as a monitor mix from FoH. Great. The one issue I’ve yet to solve is that the QSC boxes require the line level balanced XLR feed for best performance; but, there are impedance matching issues trying to send the same signal to the board. But. I digress.

Increasingly, the Sound Engineers at my gigs do NOT want high volume coming from the backline.

I have acquired relatively high performance back line gear over my playing time, and have been reluctant to move those components on. They sound amazing. Some of it needs to go; but, which parts?

There ARE still certain gigs, which call for a significant backline. But, they do seem fewer; and trying to figure out the balance makes my head hurt. I detest selling a reliable piece of gear, and then having a gig turn up, which calls for it. Also, some of my festival gigs are staffed by different Sound Engineers; and they do have different back line prefs. So, there is the additional challenge of showing up with the right gear.

I feel like we are in a “tweener” phase. Too many different solutions. I suppose one possibility is to trade my car in for a van, and just keep everything in the van. But, I’m not that “committed,” it seems.

EOR

I wouldn't be in any rush to part with your backline equipment.

In the area I play, the trend is that furnished FOH is all but finished. Fairs, festivals, outdoor events, bars, pubs and animal clubs that used to have furnished FOH, backline, lights, soundman and stagehands are all cutting their live music expenses by no longer furnishing anything but the stage to set-up on.

It's now the bands responseability to furnish all the needed FOH.

Most local bands are opting to go with a small p.a., with maybe a sub or two, along with their backline amps to help to cover the job.

We've went full circle and back to the old-school way of doing things.

 

[coyote1]

This drives me bonkers. Sound engineers are gatekeepers. Yes they have the power to make you sound bad if you don’t appease them (a shrubbery perhaps?), but they are not who the audience is coming to see.

The band should play at a level commensurate with its style and instrumentation. A rock band should NOT be dropping volume just to please the sound guy! I’ve seen sound guys who demand low stage volume, then crank FOH to ear bleed levels. Perhaps these guys simply do not know their craft…

I did sound many times back in the day. My strategy was to get the instruments level set with each other in the monitors, then to layer the vox on top so the band was comfortable onstage. From there I would, if possible, have the stage sound be the room sound, and use FOH only to fill the gaps. Otherwise I’d bring the entire mix up, and then fill the gaps.

Granted that was in the days before subwoofers became a standard feature. But it worked well, and the bands I worked with loved that I was not getting in their way.

 

[DJ Bebop]

For the few serious gigs I've played since I got my rig, it has been enough.

I’ve used the head’s DI for FOH and to fed an IEM system. I used both the cab and head together as a backline. Used the head to power some large backline provided cabs when I didn't want to use the provided head.

I have a 12” speaker I could use but the 15” is lighter

I would like a second 15

Unfortunately the single 15 has been enough and has kept money in my pocket

 

[DJ Bebop]

This drives me bonkers. Sound engineers are gatekeepers. Yes they have the power to make you sound bad if you don’t appease them (a shrubbery perhaps?), but they are not who the audience is coming to see.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

The one issue I’ve yet to solve is that the QSC boxes require the line level balanced XLR feed for best performance; but, there are impedance matching issues trying to send the same signal to the board.

EOR

Out of all the things you said, this is the one I'm not 100% familiar with, but I'm interested in it.

If I understand it, you're saying the QSC doesn't receive enough signal to give proper volume in line with it's potential and wattage rating. Maybe a preamp or some sort of Radial (because I love their products and they seem to have a product for every audio situation?) device, or super-compact mixing board can be the intermediary to deliver appropriate signal strength?

I'd love to know what solution you find.

Also, I was not aware of an impedance issue or what's up with sending the same signal. I'm sure I'm a bit confused about signal path and what I know of preamps, mixers, and QSC stuff.

I'd like to consider a "Pro-audio/PA monitor as my gigging rig kind of thing, so the topic is up my alley.

 

[Wasnex]

Sigh.

The more things remain the same, the more they change. Or, I’m burned out on GAS; or something like that.

First, I’ve discovered how to get the most out of the QSC K series PA speakers / monitors. Using a good pedal board preamp into one of the QSC boxes produces stellar bass tones and plenty of volume for stage mixes, while simultaneously acting as a monitor mix from FoH. Great. The one issue I’ve yet to solve is that the QSC boxes require the line level balanced XLR feed for best performance; but, there are impedance matching issues trying to send the same signal to the board. But. I digress.

Increasingly, the Sound Engineers at my gigs do NOT want high volume coming from the backline.

I have acquired relatively high performance back line gear over my playing time, and have been reluctant to move those components on. They sound amazing. Some of it needs to go; but, which parts?

There ARE still certain gigs, which call for a significant backline. But, they do seem fewer; and trying to figure out the balance makes my head hurt. I detest selling a reliable piece of gear, and then having a gig turn up, which calls for it. Also, some of my festival gigs are staffed by different Sound Engineers; and they do have different back line prefs. So, there is the additional challenge of showing up with the right gear.

I feel like we are in a “tweener” phase. Too many different solutions. I suppose one possibility is to trade my car in for a van, and just keep everything in the van. But, I’m not that “committed,” it seems.

EOR

Requirements have always varied from gig to gig. The tendency of certain requirements has changed, but not the requirements themselves.

For the record, I put together a PA back in 1995 that relied on IEMs, with no instrument amps on stage and no acoustic drums. AFAIK, IEMs were being used from the mid to late 80s, so this extreme is not new. You should be able to put together an IEM fly-rig that is very compact.

The opposite end of the spectrum would be something like an SVT and 810...or perhaps and 810 fed with big solid state power. The full manifestation would be a wall of 810s, which realistically must be backlined.

The first rig I ever bought was a new MTI era and 810. I won't say it was a mistake because I learned a lot trying to make that rig work. But ultimately buying the SVT was a poor choice for me. I needed something more portable and more transparent and hi-fidelity.

The last rigs I used as a professional:
1. GK 700RB/112 combo. I used this rig mostly for rehearsals so I didn't have to unpack my touring rig. I also used it as a large grab-N-go for local jazz trio gigs. On occasion I used it for touring. For louder pop gigs, the built-in 12" woofer was not enough and I added an extension cab.
2. My main touring rig was rack based. It had 16 sp rolling rack that housed a mixer, power amp, rack drawer, tuner, power strip etc. This rig had two cabs: 1. Eden D210XLT and 2. D410XLT. IME, the 210 was capable of playing louder than I am willing to play on my 260W PC QSC power amp. One occasion I used both cabs, but that was often because someone in the band wanted to use the 410 as a bass monitor. Since my system was true stereo, I could use the 210 for my needs and then adjust the level of the 410 to suit someone else at a different part of the stage. The Edens were big heavy cabs by today's standards. Today, there are lot's of options for lighter and possibly smaller cabs with equal or superior output capabilities.

The reason for the rack rig is because I sometimes switched between bass guitar, electric upright, and acoustic upright with a pickup. If I wasn't a tripler, I could have used a regular bass head. Today there are lot's of compact high-powered bass heads.

What I think you may need:
1. Fly rig with IEM capabilities. There are lot's of creative ways to approach this. I would personally look at the Behringer Flow 8 in conjunction with an iPhone, DI, and mic splitter. This type of setup would give me primary control over how my bass and voice sound in the IEMs without impacting the signal I send to FOH.
2. Powered PA cabs with preamp pedal or pedal board. This could possibly be the same exact gear that serves as your fly rig.

• a. One or more K series mains.
• b. (optional) b. One or more K series subs.

For gigs that require amps, use one or more K series mains or add K series subs to taste.

If you are happy with the PA cabs, you don't need a bass amp. However, that doesn't mean you have to sell your amps. If they bring you pleasure, keep them and use them when appropriate. For the record I have over 60s amps; so many that I have lost count. At this point they are basement quen I still have my GK 700RB/112 combo and it's the only amp in my collection I have ever gigged. I do own vintage SVTS, but I have not gigged these particular amps. Sold my MTI in 1989.

In general I don't like using a backline. I prefer using my normal rig so I know it's reliable and capable of producing the type of sound I like. I have been burned on backlines and I have also been burned running ampless on monitors. So I usually advocate to using my own rig if possible. I would be comfortable with IEMs or running on monitors while working with a trusted audio tech who can give a good stage sound.

 

[Wasnex]

This drives me bonkers. Sound engineers are gatekeepers. Yes they have the power to make you sound bad if you don’t appease them (a shrubbery perhaps?), but they are not who the audience is coming to see.

The band should play at a level commensurate with its style and instrumentation. A rock band should NOT be dropping volume just to please the sound guy! I’ve seen sound guys who demand low stage volume, then crank FOH to ear bleed levels. Perhaps these guys simply do not know their craft…

I did sound many times back in the day. My strategy was to get the instruments level set with each other in the monitors, then to layer the vox on top so the band was comfortable onstage. From there I would, if possible, have the stage sound be the room sound, and use FOH only to fill the gaps. Otherwise I’d bring the entire mix up, and then fill the gaps.

Granted that was in the days before subwoofers became a standard feature. But it worked well, and the bands I worked with loved that I was not getting in their way.

IMHO the audio tech is usually the only band rep who hears anything resembling what the audience hears. So the audio tech is the best choice to serve as the gate keeper. However, ideally you should hire a skilled audio tech with an artistic vision that is consistent with the band's core sound.

In order for the PA to have the most control over the house mix it needs to be something like 6-10dB louder than the stage wash. The problem is the lows wrap around the PA cabs and pollute the stage sound. So it's frequently not realistic for the PA to have the desired dominance as it makes it untenable for the musicians. A compromise is generally required where the musicians don't hear as well as they like, and the PA does not have maximum control.

I personally don't appreciate ear splitting SPL, regardless of whether it's caused by the PA or the backline. A vast majority of musician's seem to think it's okay to play louder than most rooms really require. A frequent excuse is "Live music is expected to be loud." This basically means the audience has to deal with it. IMHO most professional musicians are actually more akin to service providers than artists, so this is a BS attitude. The volume should be tailored to the needs of the patron and audience; otherwise, don't expect to be asked back.

Years ago I built an PA that relied on IEMs. The system had no stage amps and no acoustic drums. So basically the audio tech had near total control over the volume, with exception of the dull thud of drum sticks striking the surfaces of a TrapKat used by the drummer .

The one complaint this system drew from a few audience members was the band sounds too much like a CD. This is sort of a backhanded criticism. My impression is most of the audience saw the system as an improvement, and we actually started getting more requests because of our ability to keep the volume down.

 

[Gaolee]

I show up with a vintage ACC 360 stack. Problem solved. And I'm always, always serious.

[Seriously, I do have a stack that I still use, but also have a smaller amp that gets more use.]

 

[bucephylus]

Out of all the things you said, this is the one I'm not 100% familiar with, but I'm interested in it.

If I understand it, you're saying the QSC doesn't receive enough signal to give proper volume in line with it's potential and wattage rating. Maybe a preamp or some sort of Radial (because I love their products and they seem to have a product for every audio situation?) device, or super-compact mixing board can be the intermediary to deliver appropriate signal strength?

I'd love to know what solution you find.

Also, I was not aware of an impedance issue or what's up with sending the same signal. I'm sure I'm a bit confused about signal path and what I know of preamps, mixers, and QSC stuff.

I'd like to consider a "Pro-audio/PA monitor as my gigging rig kind of thing, so the topic is up my alley.

I JUST worked through this issue.

The bottom line is that the Balanced XLR preamp signal goes preferentially to the lowest input impedance device. The QSC K.2 series boxes have an input impedance of 40k ohms. Typical mixing board input impedances seem to be around 3K - 5k ohms. So, if you parallel the XLR to both the K.2 and to the board, then the board gets the majority of the preamp output.

I believe the only practical solution is to have two different preamps on the pedalboard; one for the QSC bass monitor box, and a separate for the FoH feed.

But, I am still chewing on that one a bit. And, this may be specific to use of the K.2’s. They just don’t sound as good using the unbalanced preamp output.

 

[coyote1]

A. However, ideally you should hire a skilled audio tech with an artistic vision that is consistent with the band's core sound.

B. In order for the PA to have the most control over the house mix it needs to be something like 6-10dB louder than the stage wash. The problem is the lows wrap around the PA cabs and pollute the stage sound. So it's frequently not realistic for the PA to have the desired dominance

A. Agreed. But this is often not the case in multi-band shows.

B. That is exactly what I did NOT do when doing sound. It was not about “desired dominance”. It was about the band being comfortable presenting its show. Think of it like this: how would Bonham or Dave Grohl be able to be the drummers they were without there being some volume? Likewise, in rock guitar feedback is a useful tool. As is volume sustain (which sounds lightyears better than pedal sustain).

So if the band presents these elements, it’s really on the venue itself to determine what too loud means. And if a hard-hitting drummer, plus a band mix that works with that drummer, means it’s too loud for the room, the venue needs to not hire bands like that. But I can get those elements in my small basement studio without it getting to earbleed! And then only the vox and keyboards are in the PA. And that was how I treated sound back then. There’s no way all the instruments should be in the PA if the room can’t hold more than 60 people. Let the band have its instrumental mix, and use PA only to get the vocals up top and the keys into the mix.

 

[oldcatfish]

For the few serious gigs I've played since I got my rig, it has been enough.

I’ve used the head’s DI for FOH and to fed an IEM system. I used both the cab and head together as a backline. Used the head to power some large backline provided cabs when I didn't want to use the provided head.

I have a 12” speaker I could use but the 15” is lighter

I would like a second 15

Unfortunately the single 15 has been enough and has kept money in my pocket

View attachment 7261573

This is off topic, but the only logical solution for DJ Bebop is to sell the 12 inch cab and get a matching 15, for both a backup…or for whenever you might want more.

 

[agedhorse]

Out of all the things you said, this is the one I'm not 100% familiar with, but I'm interested in it.

If I understand it, you're saying the QSC doesn't receive enough signal to give proper volume in line with it's potential and wattage rating. Maybe a preamp or some sort of Radial (because I love their products and they seem to have a product for every audio situation?) device, or super-compact mixing board can be the intermediary to deliver appropriate signal strength?

I'd love to know what solution you find.

Also, I was not aware of an impedance issue or what's up with sending the same signal. I'm sure I'm a bit confused about signal path and what I know of preamps, mixers, and QSC stuff.

I'd like to consider a "Pro-audio/PA monitor as my gigging rig kind of thing, so the topic is up my alley.

They work fine with a proper preamp that can output line level, it’s all about having the right tools for the job.

 

[DJ Bebop]

This is off topic, but the only logical solution for DJ Bebop is to sell the 12 inch cab and get a matching 15, for both a backup…or for whenever you might want more.

Maybe…

 

[agedhorse]

A. Agreed. But this is often not the case in multi-band shows.

B. That is exactly what I did NOT do when doing sound. It was not about “desired dominance”. It was about the band being comfortable presenting its show. Think of it like this: how would Bonham or Dave Grohl be able to be the drummers they were without there being some volume? Likewise, in rock guitar feedback is a useful tool. As is volume sustain (which sounds lightyears better than pedal sustain).

So if the band presents these elements, it’s really on the venue itself to determine what too loud means. And if a hard-hitting drummer, plus a band mix that works with that drummer, means it’s too loud for the room, the venue needs to not hire bands like that. But I can get those elements in my small basement studio without it getting to earbleed! And then only the vox and keyboards are in the PA. And that was how I treated sound back then. There’s no way all the instruments should be in the PA if the room can’t hold more than 60 people. Let the band have its instrumental mix, and use PA only to get the vocals up top and the keys into the mix.

When the band is too loud coming off the stage, there is not much a sound guy can do to improve things for the audience.

I mixed FOH professionally (touring acts primarily) for over 30 years, it’s a balancing act between a lot of elements and one of them is the audience’s tolerance for volume. With enough volume complaints, it doesn’t matter one bit what the sound guy owes with the mix.

EVERYTHING is a compromise, if you can’t accept this, then you are going to have a lot of challenges in your music career.

 

[DJ Bebop]

IMHO the audio tech is usually the only band rep who hears anything resembling what the audience hears. So the audio tech is the best choice to serve as the gate keeper. However, ideally you should hire a skilled audio tech with an artistic vision that is consistent with the band's core sound.

In order for the PA to have the most control over the house mix it needs to be something like 6-10dB louder than the stage wash. The problem is the lows wrap around the PA cabs and pollute the stage sound. So it's frequently not realistic for the PA to have the desired dominance as it makes it untenable for the musicians. A compromise is generally required where the musicians don't hear as well as they like, and the PA does not have maximum control.

I personally don't appreciate ear splitting SPL, regardless of whether it's caused by the PA or the backline. A vast majority of musician's seem to think it's okay to play louder than most rooms really require. A frequent excuse is "Live music is expected to be loud." This basically means the audience has to deal with it. IMHO most professional musicians are actually more akin to service providers than artists, so this is a BS attitude. The volume should be tailored to the needs of the patron and audience; otherwise, don't expect to be asked back.

Years ago I built an PA that relied on IEMs. The system had no stage amps and no acoustic drums. So basically the audio tech had near total control over the volume, with exception of the dull thud of drum sticks striking the surfaces of a TrapKat used by the drummer .

The one complaint this system drew from a few audience members was the band sounds too much like a CD. This is sort of a backhanded criticism. My impression is most of the audience saw the system as an improvement, and we actually started getting more requests because of our ability to keep the volume down.

My son use to do sound for a corporate/wedding band. The whole band was on IEs and no on-stage sound, Roland V drums.

It was the only time when old people would approach him and ask if he could turn down the band, that he could

In fact at a show I was attending as his helper an old couple asked if he could and he did, all the way down and the band kept playing (in ears). They said “Not that low”

We had one old couple though that despite all the open tables in the venue. They decided to set at one right in front of a PA stack and complained the whole night of it being too loud. The newlyweds even tried to get them to move to another table but they refused

We were told not to worry about them.