Double Bass Bad bow days

[wisemonkey]

Hi all, I'm mainly an electric/jazz player, but always trying to improve my arco technique, which mainly comes up in theatre work. I wonder if any of you more experienced classical players could advise me on this issue: Some days I pick up the bow and it seems to squeak more than usual. My technique isn't great but I think there's more to it than that. On these occasions the hair feels quite dry - I've tried adding more rosin, experiment with tweaking the tension - I initially wondered if it was related to humidity (or lack of), but the hygrometer in my room has a healthy reading.
Does anyone else experience this variability in the feel of the bow, and do you have any tips for keeping it in good shape?

 

[Andrew McGregor]

Probably too much rosin the last time plus it's been on the hair ageing.

Most beginners use way too much rosin... a properly rosined bow is good for around three hours playing, and will only need a couple of strokes to freshen it up after that. It shouldn't feel particularly sticky, more dusty.

 

[Rob Thompson]

Wipe your strings, flick the backside of the hair of your bow to puff out dust and chunks, and make sure to warm up your hair/rosin a bit when you first start playing (take some long strokes frog to tip for bit). These things can help sometimes.

 

[fergus currie]

One more idea...
Some e/b players expect too much from arco.
The truth is you don't hear the sound you make when you're playing arco and as a result you press too hard and the bow jams or sticks.
Trust the bow to make the sound - don't push too much or move the bow too quickly.
Practice on your own a few strokes to see how you do when your not in the theatre pit.
Remember the feeling of the good sound and try to duplicate that in the pit.
Even if you think you are not being heard, you are!

FC

 

[Art Vandelay]

Probably too much rosin the last time plus it's been on the hair ageing.

Most beginners use way too much rosin... a properly rosined bow is good for around three hours playing, and will only need a couple of strokes to freshen it up after that. It shouldn't feel particularly sticky, more dusty.

Wow. I'd use WAY less than that. I use Pops, which is probably the stickiest and longest-lasting rosin. I't use 1 or 2 strokes every 3 or 4 days, and I play for at least 4 hours a day in a symphony orchestra.

My teacher once used a "donkey being dragged by rope" analogy when it came to rosin: At the beginning, it's tempting to use the biggest rope you can find, but once you know how to get that donkey moving, you really don't need much more than a thread.

You only really need enough rosin on the bow so that it gives the slightest bit of traction. If you're using a very free bow movement, and using (controlled) speed, not pressure to make your sound, you really don't want a load of gloop on the hair slowing you down. Often it's the rosin that gets in the way of a clean bow change, making awkward scratches and gaps in the sound.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Wipe your strings, flick the backside of the hair of your bow to puff out dust and chunks, ...

Chunks! Perhaps an example of too much rosin? The old 'dusty' rosin on the bow will warm up and become useful after a couple of loud bow, fast bow-strokes! no need to put more on and have it pile up in chunks in my opinion.

I know lots of people who use way too much rosin - one former colleague had a dedicated toothbrush he's bring with him to eliminate bow chunks. I just didn't get it, he'd put on excessive rosin and then try to toothbrush-out that same excess rosin.

 

[kurt muroki]

Sounds like you need a rehair and some new rosin. What type do you use? I use fresh pops, oak soft, and kolstein all weather for old hair.

 

[Blakewdm]

Yeah, rehair might do the trick, but in michigan the erratic weather has been goofy for my hair, so take that into account. I use pops as well, but when it gets really gross out i will throw a swipe of carlssons to help powder it up a bit.

 

[Jason Sypher]

All excellent suggestions. Do you practice with a mirror? As you know, scratching is often related to not bowing perpendicular to the strings. Another thought. Scratching makes us all tense. When we hear it, we tense up. If you continue in the same manner you will become more tense. Tension always shows up in our sound. Just pay attention to that. Another thought is that humid days always swell the top of my bass which, in turn, raises the string height and string tension. If you are used to one feeling from the bass and then find it quite tight on another day you will experience a different sound. When I find myself not liking my bow sound I try to relax, reapproach, check myself in the mirror and look for cues in my body. If nothing seems to help I either go back to the simplest long bow exercises or move on to something else. The key to practice on bow or otherwise is to be productive and manage your time. One day you make great strides on the bow, another great strides on pizz or ear-training or whatever. Take your bow in to you rehair guy and see if it's time for a rehair. Also, I should say that I sometimes go a week withour re-rosining my bow. In fact, I rather like to push it until it's almost negligent just to test my skills. Of course, I'm not talking about practicing for a section, but then again, neither are you. Best of luck

 

[fergus currie]

Bow, rosin, weather.... I don't want to seem ironic but a certain saying about bad workmen comes to mind. Not that these things don't play a role but Wisemonkey is a electric/jazz player and he just needs to get the basics right.

 

[one4dabass]

Really good advices!
It also depends of your own playing comfort... What kind of hair are you using? There's many sorts of hairs according to the style you play (main: white, grey, black). You might use more pronation, but you've a more "dulce" (sweet) sound and speed with the first one, but you've more staccato precision with the third. Grey is between both. Rosin's choice depends of your hair's quality.
I also recommend you to take the time to really warm up... The right hand is as important as the left hand. In 10 minutes you can find your usual -good- bow feeling if you have the right method. Just play the strings without the left hand, playing all of them in all configurations (i mean G-E-D-A, E-G-A-D, etc...) until you find the smoothiest sensation of fluidity, WITH METRONOME, change the pulse and the rythm gradually (to 40 bpm to 130 bpm, to 2/4 to 12/8 for example). Think to really keep your hair always on the string, perpendicular to it to have a true sound constancy and a good articulation/dissociation between your arm, your forearm and your wrist. Now, you've got YOUR good sensation and you can retrieve it on all strings adding the left hand.
Hope it will be help you! -and as usual, excuse my poor english!-

 

[Rob Thompson]

Chunks! Perhaps an example of too much rosin? The old 'dusty' rosin on the bow will warm up and become useful after a couple of loud bow, fast bow-strokes! no need to put more on and have it pile up in chunks in my opinion.

I know lots of people who use way too much rosin - one former colleague had a dedicated toothbrush he's bring with him to eliminate bow chunks. I just didn't get it, he'd put on excessive rosin and then try to toothbrush-out that same excess rosin.

With respect to all the pros in here, rosin quantity depends on personal taste and what type of rosin you use. Two swipes every 3 hours, one swipe every four days, potato, potahto. Sure, it's possible to put on too much rosin, but if you are an experienced player and it works for you, it isn't really "wrong".

Also, some rosins "chunk" up more in my experience. Pops won't very much, while Kolstein on the other hand will leave little chunks after one swipe on the hair.

 

[David Potts]

No-one has mentioned bow tension yet. Even if you bow at 90 degrees and use the "correct" brand and amount of rosin you can produce squeaks with hair that is over tensioned.

My starting point is to tension the hair so that at the middle of the bow your hair just touches the stick when you press down and play three strings at once. This is the maximum weight I would use. From this point I will experiment half turns up, half turns down, etc, until I can make the nicest connection with the string by bending the hair over it when using "normal" weight.

Another consideration is the quality of your bow. If you have a very stiff stick the tensioning of the hair becomes even more critical. Weak sticks never provide enough hair tension.

Yet another consideration might be the quality of strings you are using. Are they designed for bowing, as hybrids or for jazz?

Best wishes,

DP

 

[Matt Ides]

I have found when I haven't changed anything and the scratch is there, again, Humidity levels most likely have risen quickly. As Jason says, the bass just feels and responds different.

 

[chicagodoubler]

Also... if you're not practicing with the bow regularly, you may not be properly feeling the weight and balance of the stick, and trying to press rather than letting the bow do the work. Are you working with the bow daily? There's really no substitute for regular time with the bow.

Specifics- make sure your entire arm is relaxed, consciously relaxing the shoulder, elbow, and wrist. You should feel the bow hanging off of your fingers, as if passing the balance point (towards the frog) would drop the tip towards the floor. Rabbath proponents are excellent at teaching this style of bow work.

French or German? What's your background regarding education on the bow?

 

[wisemonkey]

Thanks for all the great comments - yes I am definitely a bad workman, and not blaming my tools, but just trying to find out if there are any ways I can calibrate them better, as well a improve my technique.
Definitely sounds like I should try using less rosin, and I'll take on board all of the practice tips. I love thus forum!

 

[AClark]

That happens to me sometimes. I'm not sure if it's mental, or an actual physical issue. But I normally just set the bass down and just listen/watch recordings of other bass players and that normally puts me back on the right track. You play what you hear.

 

[Phil Rowan]

All excellent suggestions. Do you practice with a mirror? As you know, scratching is often related to not bowing perpendicular to the strings. Another thought. Scratching makes us all tense. When we hear it, we tense up. If you continue in the same manner you will become more tense. Tension always shows up in our sound. Just pay attention to that. Another thought is that humid days always swell the top of my bass which, in turn, raises the string height and string tension. If you are used to one feeling from the bass and then find it quite tight on another day you will experience a different sound. When I find myself not liking my bow sound I try to relax, reapproach, check myself in the mirror and look for cues in my body. If nothing seems to help I either go back to the simplest long bow exercises or move on to something else. The key to practice on bow or otherwise is to be productive and manage your time. One day you make great strides on the bow, another great strides on pizz or ear-training or whatever. Take your bow in to you rehair guy and see if it's time for a rehair. Also, I should say that I sometimes go a week withour re-rosining my bow. In fact, I rather like to push it until it's almost negligent just to test my skills. Of course, I'm not talking about practicing for a section, but then again, neither are you. Best of luck

+1. This is really great advice. Long tones, bowing on open strings and using the tension of the string to determine how to pull the sound from the bass (no pressure, only contact frog to tip) are essential things I do almost every day before I really start working on anything. And I'll second what fergus currie said and say that a lesson or two with a good upright bassist would be advisable if you really want to get the meat and potatoes on arco work and general playing of the upright bass.