Double Bass Bang-for-the-buck EUB?

[MuseChaser]

Starting this thread after reading two threads over on the BG side. One asked participants to define what an "expensive" BG price would be, and another asked for a "cheap" price point. Of particular interest were how good many folks felt some basses in the $200-$500 realm were when set up properly.

I promise I'll get to the point...

I play, and prefer to play, acoustic bass, but don't own one. I own and play an Alembic Epic5 fretless, arguably a bass that some would consider more towards the "expensive" side than "cheap." I also recently acquired a Peavey Grind5 fretted bass for $250, which would qualify as cheap. With some help and advice here, and from a local bass wizard, it is now set up beautifully, plays plays like a dream, and sounds very good (all stock pickups/bridge, rewired controls to blend/volume/tone rather than vvtt). It isn't quite as much fun to play as the Alembic, but the ratio of fun to cost is MUCH higher....the Alembic is worth about ten times as much, yet the Peavey plays at least half as well....and maybe more.

I'd LOVE to pick up an EUB, but can't find any locally to try, and am loathe to lay out thousands of semolians for something I can't see or play first.

Soooo....here's the point. Is there an EUB that would qualify as "cheap," but plays surprisingly well, would feel at least relatively familiar to a classical trained bassist who plays jazz, and doesn't sound like a bad sampled bass or a fretless BG?

I know Emminence, MK, and the Yamaha SB300 have been touted as the most "realistic" options here on the forum. How close can I get without spending that much dough?

Thanks for any thoughts, ideas, insults, or offers....

 

[DrCannabass]

You could try a Stagg, but you probably won't like it. MK Bass might be on the expensive side, but worth it IMO

If you want that natural DB feel, pony up for a MK or Yamaha

 

[DoubleMIDI]

All the cheap EUBs either need modifications (Stagg, Palatino) or are mounted on a tripod or have a short scale with BG strings (that sound like a BG).

I have a Stagg. I strongly recommend one with the rosewood fingerboard as it is nicer to work on the fingerboard if needed.
The standard ones in black have a black (epoxy?) painted fingerboard side of the neck that needs the finish to be removed from the neck if the camber needs to be changed (the truss rod does nothing on mine because of the thick neck) or a high spot needs to be planed.

The fingerboard curvature is low. If you want to bow it bows like a 5- string acoustic DB with a smaller angle to the next string. There is not really a chance to change that. The board is too thin.

Simple modifications are a sponge in the underlengths to damp the vibrations there and maybe a bit of cardboard or a shim between neck and body to get the fingerboard more angled.

The bridge is heavy because of the big adjusters, also coated with the same lacquer as the neck. The E string can jump out of the bridge groove if played hard. The strings are equal height which needs a modification of the bridge to get the lower strings higher.
I would recommend a new bridge as the original is a bad technical design.
Different adjuster heights easily block the bridge parts and even don‘t go far enough.

I rebent my body support so that both parts of the U-shape press against my body equally. Looks a bit strange but works.
I don‘t use the support for the left shoulder of the bass as it is too sticky with the rubber coating. Good for the body support but bad for the simulation of the left shoulder.

The Palatino needs even more and more drastic modifications.

The Ibanez with BG strings and tripod is too far from a DB on sound and playability.

Cheap Chinese EUBs often have a very long neck, so no D or Eb neck but something starting at F or higher.
So no orientation point for the fifth.

The MK instruments are not cheap, but the Studio is not that much more expensive than a rosewood Stagg and is already professionally set up.

I have even modified my used Clevinger EUB because the angled foot under the bridge haven‘t worked well with bowing and the passive electronics don‘t work well with piezo pickups (a buffer for each pickup in front of the passive electronic is needed).
Single side pickups in general don’t work well with solid body instruments.

I can live with all the EUBs I own, but my carved DB (and even a plywood DB at the big band rehearsal room) is a lot nicer to play. Even transport is nicer with a DB with a (double) wheel if I don‘t need amplification.

 

[MuseChaser]

All the cheap EUBs either need modifications (Stagg, Palatino) or are mounted on a tripod or have a short scale with BG strings (that sound like a BG).

I have a Stagg. I strongly recommend one with the rosewood fingerboard as it is nicer to work on the fingerboard if needed.
The standard ones in black have a black (epoxy?) painted fingerboard side of the neck that needs the finish to be removed from the neck if the camber needs to be changed (the truss rod does nothing on mine because of the thick neck) or a high spot needs to be planed.

The fingerboard curvature is low. If you want to bow it bows like a 5- string acoustic DB with a smaller angle to the next string. There is not really a chance to change that. The board is too thin.

Simple modifications are a sponge in the underlengths to damp the vibrations there and maybe a bit of cardboard or a shim between neck and body to get the fingerboard more angled.

The bridge is heavy because of the big adjusters, also coated with the same lacquer as the neck. The E string can jump out of the bridge groove if played hard. The strings are equal height which needs a modification of the bridge to get the lower strings higher.
I would recommend a new bridge as the original is a bad technical design.
Different adjuster heights easily block the bridge parts and even don‘t go far enough.

I rebent my body support so that both parts of the U-shape press against my body equally. Looks a bit strange but works.
I don‘t use the support for the left shoulder of the bass as it is too sticky with the rubber coating. Good for the body support but bad for the simulation of the left shoulder.

The Palatino needs even more and more drastic modifications.

The Ibanez with BG strings and tripod is too far from a DB on sound and playability.

Cheap Chinese EUBs often have a very long neck, so no D or Eb neck but something starting at F or higher.
So no orientation point for the fifth.

The MK instruments are not cheap, but the Studio is not that much more expensive than a rosewood Stagg and is already professionally set up.

I have even modified my used Clevinger EUB because the angled foot under the bridge haven‘t worked well with bowing and the passive electronics don‘t work well with piezo pickups (a buffer for each pickup in front of the passive electronic is needed).
Single side pickups in general don’t work well with solid body instruments.

I can live with all the EUBs I own, but my carved DB (and even a plywood DB at the big band rehearsal room) is a lot nicer to play. Even transport is nicer with a DB with a (double) wheel if I don‘t need amplification.

What in incredibly helpful reply. Thank you so much! Your experiments/experiences with the Stagg sound like my journey with a dirt cheap "Carlo Robelli" electric violin I bought (Sam Ash's house branded Chinese bottom of the barrel offering). Unplayable as stock, but I carved a new bridge for it, put on a set of used Zyex strings, and I'll be darned... It actually plays pretty well! It's not going to ever be as enjoyable to play as my good violin, but it works great for a latin band I use it in.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I forgot to mention that the pots are a bit delicate on the Stagg and you need a special type if you want to keep the original knob that I haven’t found yet.

Seems like an impact has liked one of them on my one. For the moment I simply bridged the removed pot, so I‘m at 100% volume always.

 

[MuseChaser]

Following up... just got my from my first (and last... but that's another rant....) visit to a Guitar Center to grab a replacement sustain pedal for the one that slowly went belly-up during my keyboard gigs this week. While I was there, attempting to catch someone... anyone.... Bueller? Bueller?.... ANYONE'S attention, I finally found the pedal I needed (Yamaha FC3a --with variable damper control, not a basic on/off sustain switch) on my own after about 20 minutes. Spent another 15 minutes trying to pay for the thing. During the transaction, I asked the incredibly well-informed, polite, interested team member if they had any EUBs in stock. After a few keystrokes and some grunts, he said, "Yeah, we got one in 11 days ago." I said, "Great... where is it?"
.
(an aside)... ... wait.... I guess this IS the rant. Might as well continue...(back to the story)

A somewhat lengthy pregnant pause ensued whilst I awaited the forthcoming pearls of helpful and sage benevolence, as I remained with my gaze fixed upon the friendly client interface agent. The suspense was killing me. Eventually he managed to come up with... "Uhhh... probly over there somewhere" accompanied by a vague arm wave towards the western hemisphere.

Armed with my trusty receipt and newly-foraged sustain pedal ("NO BAGS ALLOWED IN STORE. ALL BAGS MUST BE LEFT AT COUNTER UPON ENTRY"), I embarked upon lands yet to be discovered within the bowels of the unkempt wasteland that was this particular (all? typical? I have no idea... but, and I'm not making this up, one of the employees was actually changing into his work duds in the middle of the store) GITtar Center. Eventually, in the used area (not marked as such, but everyone else seemed to realize it), despite the helpful, friendly, informed service specialist's unintentional omission of the fact that it was used, I did in fact spy a white Stagg sitting on a stand. Your EKE AH!

Peter Frampton was also in that room, trying to see if guitar strings really WERE unbreakable, so there was no point in trying to hear what the Stagg sounded like, but I did attempt to play it. The bout attachment was missing, though, which made it almost impossible to balance. After a few minutes I knew that the fingerboard (and it was the ebony-looking ersatz stuff) was out of true, with some high spots and low spots at various places, and that the bridge height on the low side could actually come down a bit, despite the adjusters being bottomed out, so buying it was of no interest (and it was tagged at $550... I thought these usually went for about that new?), but I was still interested in seeing how it felt with the bout. Soooo.... time to find another interested, enthusiastic customer guide!

tick..... tick..... tick..... tick......time....passes.....

OK... so I carry the thing over the main central counter, where much intense dickering and discussion of pedals between one customer and seemingly the entire staff is taking place. Eventually, one of the specialists peels himself away from the debate, sees me standing there and says, "So, you're taking that home today, eh? Cool!" I politely demur, but ask if they have the bout attachment. "Yeah, pretty sure I saw it when it came in. Did you look around for it?" I concur enthusiastically; I had, indeed, done me best to be my own service representative and had extensively combed the entire area, even looking behind amplifiers, displays, discarded clothing, etc. A few grunts into an intercom later, another rep comes up, friendlier than the others (no sarcasm there.... he actually was the first person able to speak in sentences and smile). He looked around the same areas I had, came up empty, took a picture of the receiving holes in the bass, sent it to the staff, and a few minutes later got a reply. He informed me, "It's in the case, which is way out back."

Another long pause. We gaze at each other, carefully planning our next move. Finally, I said, "Thanks for checking. Don't worry about it." His reply? "OH, great, thanks man... it's a real pain to go back there."

Seriously. No exaggeration. This happened. The sustain pedal does work. Learned enough about what an EUB can feel like that I'm still interested, but also learned that a Stagg is probably not what I'm looking for, at least not this model. Also learned that I may or may not be Guitar Center's targeted demographic.

The search continues.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Any cheap mass produced EUB has these kind of problems.
I have three Staggs, two with the black coated fingerboard and one with the rosewood fingerboard. (I replaced the neck of one with the rosewood one that came as a cheap piece incomplete one, so it’s rather two and some parts.)
I read that some could remove the black coating from the black coated necks, but I haven’t tried it because I was afraid that more of it might get off the neck on the sides where it should stay.
The rosewood has a laquer coating, but that can be removed completely on the playing surface and then the board can be dressed as needed and sealed by linseed oil or something similar as and DB neck. That’s what I did with my rosewood fingerboard neck.
But I think the price of the Staggs raised too high now. I got mine with small damages, mainly at the neck pouch, for about a third of the price of a new one.

If you want an EUB that works out of the box, get one built from a DB luthier (like the MK basses) or something more expensive where part of the price is the setup of the instrument.

 

[bherman]

@MuseChaser your GC post cracked me up! I think that how they train their employees - "now, the main thing to remember is whenever a customer walks in, no matter what else you have going on, DON'T MAKE EYE CONTACT AND DONT OFFER TO HELP THEM!!"

Anyway, I am a happy Eminence owner. I searched for a long time and bought a used one that needed a little work to get it into playable shape - new bridge, strings, pickup - but I am very happy with it. Probably about $2K or so to get one in decent shape. That's not much at all in the DB world, and in the mid-range for bass guitar. So it depends what your resources are, and how much you want to go down that path.

 

[MuseChaser]

@MuseChaser your GC post cracked me up! I think that how they train their employees - "now, the main thing to remember is whenever a customer walks in, no matter what else you have going on, DON'T MAKE EYE CONTACT AND DONT OFFER TO HELP THEM!!"

Anyway, I am a happy Eminence owner. I searched for a long time and bought a used one that needed a little work to get it into playable shape - new bridge, strings, pickup - but I am very happy with it. Probably about $2K or so to get one in decent shape. That's not much at all in the DB world, and in the mid-range for bass guitar. So it depends what your resources are, and how much you want to go down that path.

The budget is there... just not the intestinal fortitude to buy anything without playing it first. I've bought lots of instruments over the years (my wife and I are both performing musicians by trade); violins, violi, alto, tenor, and soprano saxophones, trumpets, pianos, and (embarassed face) even an accordion or two, and in pretty much every case, I've been able to take a few candidates, play them for a week or two, compare, and make a choice to purchase, or at least spend an hour or so playing a candidate at an establishment. Some of those instruments have been in the five figure ranges, but even when it's just a couple hundred bucks, I want to make sure it's what I'm looking before prior to laying out dough. I know it can't always be that way, but a guy can dream, right?

 

[bherman]

The budget is there... just not the intestinal fortitude to buy anything without playing it first. I've bought lots of instruments over the years (my wife and I are both performing musicians by trade); violins, violi, alto, tenor, and soprano saxophones, trumpets, pianos, and (embarassed face) even an accordion or two, and in pretty much every case, I've been able to take a few candidates, play them for a week or two, compare, and make a choice to purchase, or at least spend an hour or so playing a candidate at an establishment. Some of those instruments have been in the five figure ranges, but even when it's just a couple hundred bucks, I want to make sure it's what I'm looking before prior to laying out dough. I know it can't always be that way, but a guy can dream, right?

That makes sense - one idea for you is to post in the EUB forum here and see if there are any owners within reasonable distance of you that would let you try their EUB. Of course it wouldnt be the actual instrument you'd purchase, but would give you a sense of how they feel "in hand". I've played a couple of other Eminence basses and while some things are different (strings, setup, etc) the basic instrument is the same. Hopefully there would be a selection of them out there within a 1/2 days drive.

 

[uprightbass.com]

My experiences with Guitar Center in the late 1990's-2010's were terrible and I hadn't gone back for a very long time. More so because I was happy with my BG and everything so I didn't need anything. In the span of 5 years I've gone about ten times to three separate ones because I was looking for a digital piano, recording gear, or PA or other things. I've found everyone either willing and trying to be helpful or helpful. People have come to ask me if I need help. Even with a used purchase where I called a place on the other coast to ask about a condition of a Phil Jones they had, the guy was really great and patient.

I know that it's a running joke and people like the bash the place, but I've experienced the opposite.

 

[Tom Lane]

Op, to answer your original question: used.

 

[Lance Bunyon]

Wishbass and Krappy Guitars both make budget EUBs. Doesn't help with the "I need to play it first" though, unless you're in the Carolinas.

 

[bherman]

My experiences with Guitar Center in the late 1990's-2010's were terrible and I hadn't gone back for a very long time. More so because I was happy with my BG and everything so I didn't need anything. In the span of 5 years I've gone about ten times to three separate ones because I was looking for a digital piano, recording gear, or PA or other things. I've found everyone either willing and trying to be helpful or helpful. People have come to ask me if I need help. Even with a used purchase where I called a place on the other coast to ask about a condition of a Phil Jones they had, the guy was really great and patient.

I know that it's a running joke and people like the bash the place, but I've experienced the opposite.

Good to hear - I wish that was the case here locally, but unfortunately not. Ironically they just opened in the las 6 months, we have a great locally owned store and locals were afraid that GC would hurt their business. I recently talked to the owner and he said that the opposite happened - they had a spike when GC opened. Honestly I would like to see GC do ok here since they do carry stuff the coal guys don’t, but it seems like the GC bad store case study unfortunately. Anyway, enough hijacking the OP…

 

[MuseChaser]

I went to a small local guitar shop yesterday on a whim, and the owner, who I'd met years ago, was great. He happened to have a new Stagg in stock. Given my experience with Guitar Center and the somewhat Bb reviews of the Stagg throughout this thread and forum in general, I wasn't very enthused about trying it. There was no one else in the shop at the time, though, and we were just chatting so I figured what the heck, let's check it out.

In all honesty, it actually played pretty nicely, and I was more than a little pleasantly surprised. I wish it had more flexible tone controls (the only adjustment was a "Sub Bass" knob), and even at the lowest adjustment of the bridge I would have liked to be able to go just a bit lower (although I don't know if the fingerboard/truss system would have allowed it...was starting to get the slightest bit of buzz on the D string when playing "A" at where the bout would have been). Rattling endpin (easy fix). Other than that, really not bad. With the wire body braces attached, it was easy to balance and felt stable.

 

[bassically_eli]

If you want the feel of an acoustic DB but don't want to pay top dollar, I would recommend looking for a used Yamaha SLB200. I bought one in the classifieds here recently for $1700. It doesn't have the mic or fancy modeling of the 300, but with a good preamp the pickup sounds about as good as I think anyone could expect for a piezo--that is, about the same as an acoustic DB with a piezo.

The other basses I considered but didn't get to play (I was also looking for something as close to the feel of a DB for practice and travel, and also didn't want to spend more than a decent DB costs just for that) were Clevingers, which can be found used for cheap, and Baby Basses such as Corvann. The Clevingers are confusing as every single one seems to be a unique design.