Basic sound help please...

[dancrocker]

Sorry in advance for this, but I'm so clueless that I'm not even sure where to start or what to search for.
I play in a church band. Unfortunately, we don't really have anyone doing sound for us. The music director (who sings and plays piano) adjusts levels for the singers and other instruments. But, she doesn't seem to have much advice for me regarding my tone. Meanwhile, I have very little experience playing live so I don't know how to get a tone that I like and that sounds good to the audience.

Some basic info:
The PA for the church is pretty wimpy so I play through a Carvin BX1200 with a 4x10 cabinet. The church wasn't designed with music in mind so I suspect the acoustics are pretty crappy. The area where we set up is tile. The rest of the church is carpeted. The walls are fairly bare. If I had to guess, I'd say the building is about 200ftX200ft.

I'm looking for some advice on where to start. My amp has a set of tone controls and an equalizer that can be switched in. I've really only messed with the tone controls Is there a systematic way to dial in a tone? Are there devices that can be used to determine the acoustics of the room and help set the tone controls or use the equalizer? I think if I had a methodology to use, I'd have more success than just the trial and error approach I'm using now. Feel free to point me to other threads or good online resources.

 

[JimmyM]

most of us just start with all the controls at noon and go from there, sometimes taking off the lowest low end if it's too boomy, maybe adding a little if it sounds too thin, and basically just turning knobs in slight increments until it sounds good. it helps if you can get off the stage during your soundcheck and listen to what it sounds like from out there.

 

[tobie]

Your problem is that dynamics change depending on the number of people inside the building. Try and get the sound you like and accept that it might sound a bit different when the building is full of people. If you have eq's on your guitar, keep the controls around the 12 o'clock marks so you've got some leeway to do minor on-board adjustments during play / inbetween songs.

You will definitely have to turn up your volume a bit once the congregation is singing with the band (also do that from the guitar). Ask your band leader for a secret indication if your volume is too high / too low.

Try and find someone with a good ear to listen to the band during the service and offer some advice afterwards, for future use.

 

[dancrocker]

Thanks for the quick responses. I'll take your advice and set the tone controls at 12 and then tweak. I play a p-bass so I really don't have much tone control on the instrument.
What's never been clear to me is when I would switch in the graphic EQ as opposed to just using the tone controls. Any advice about this would be appreciated.
On several occasions, I've stepped into the congregation area while playing (I'm wireless) to hear how I sound. I'm not always happy with what I hear but I'm not sure what to do. The other issue is that, due to the slight delay, I find it hard to play and I don't want to mess up the rest of the band during sound check. Maybe I'll try this again.
There are a couple of people who have a good enough ear to comment on levels but none of them (at least so far) has had anything to say about my tone.

 

[walker rosewood]

"tone" is a very subjective topic. When you play a note, there is a fundamental pitch (frequency), as well as many other pitches or overtones, aka the harmonic series, that also sound. The volume of all of these pitches/harmonics/overtones/partial relative to each other will make up the 'tone'. So you should start by reading this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music) or googling 'harmonic series'

Now, the way to control how the volume of these partials compare to each other is through Equalization. In other words, picking specific frequencies and turning them up or down. There are several different types of equalizers. To really understand how they work, read this: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] and http://www.ethanwiner.com/equalizers.html and google 'equalization'.

Once you've got an understanding of how 'tone' is produced and manipulated, then you will be able to really listen to your sound, and be able to at least express the qualities about your 'tone' that you like or dislike. You'll also hopefully be able to address the things you dislike and fix them.


There are a myriad of factors that contribute to your tone and the equalization of the sound you're hearing. To list a few...Your fingers or pick will change your sound, the instrument itself (strings, wood, pickups, construction, etc), the cable (or wireless unit) will add it's own eq, any pedals you are using, the preamp in your head (all those eq knobs), the power amp, the construction of the cabinet, the speakers in the cabinet, the temperature and humidity, windshear (if you're outdoors), the room, and even your very own ear will add it's on eq.

All that sounds daunting, but most of it you can't change. The eq controls on your head are you're best way to adjust for all the factors.

Wireless is a great tool to use here, get in the room, the whole room, and listen to how you sound. Make adjustments and do it again. You'll need to understand how you're amp works.

I glanced at your manual: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] There are some brief explanations of the eq controls that are helpful. To start, you should realize that the 'bass' knob controls 80hz, the 'treble' is at 5khz, and the 'contour' knob is a mid scoop. The three middle knobs have a frequency control. After reading the articles posted above, you should understand how those work, as well as the graphic eq section. The only thing I can't tell from your manual is if the graphic eq overides the 'tone' knobs or not. On my ampeg, it does not.

I apologize for my long-winded response, but hopefully it's helpful. Good luck!

 

[dancrocker]

On the contrary, I really appreciate your long-winded response and the pointers. It gives me a lot to look at.
Thanks!

 

[Oraflora]

I would advise trying to dial in the purest sound you can - with or without eq when playing by yourself in the room. Doesn't need to be at full volume, but you should be fairly loud.

The amp should reproduce the natural sound of your bass, as if you plugged it straight into a mixing board or pair of headphones. (I don't know if that explanation will help if you haven't recorded yet).

IMO, EQ is for adding or subtracting frequencies that "get in the way" of a good band mix, or to help you fit in "sonically" with the rest of the band.

A big, fat bass tone you hear on a record that has been produced, compressed and mastered isn't what you should try for, (again, IMO). A pure, clean tone that might be modified by adding a little 'bass' or 'mid' depending on what sounds good with the band would be my goal.

--Also keep in mind, your 410 will "develop" the low end away from the stage, so your audience may hear a lot more low end than you are.

 

[dancrocker]

I would advise trying to dial in the purest sound you can - with or without eq when playing by yourself in the room. Doesn't need to be at full volume, but you should be fairly loud.

The amp should reproduce the natural sound of your bass, as if you plugged it straight into a mixing board or pair of headphones. (I don't know if that explanation will help if you haven't recorded yet).

IMO, EQ is for adding or subtracting frequencies that "get in the way" of a good band mix, or to help you fit in "sonically" with the rest of the band.

A big, fat bass tone you hear on a record that has been produced, compressed and mastered isn't what you should try for, (again, IMO). A pure, clean tone that might be modified by adding a little 'bass' or 'mid' depending on what sounds good with the band would be my goal.

--Also keep in mind, your 410 will "develop" the low end away from the stage, so your audience may hear a lot more low end than you are.

Very helpful. Thanks very much. It looks like I should spend some time on my own messing with this.

 

[tobie]

<clip> I don't want to mess up the rest of the band during sound check.<clip>

Remember this is your best opportunity to sort things out. That's what sound checks are for - and getting your sound right is as important as getting all other instruments' sound right!

 

[Oraflora]

Yes, sound checks are for dialing in sound for yourself and the group, especially monitor mixes, etc.

Soundcheck means making sure onstage volumes, tones and monitor mixes work for everyone.
Rehearsing means working on the songs to make sure everyone can follow the chart/knows their parts, etc.

Just stating that for clarification - I have no idea what kind of experience you or others reading this have and am not trying to talk down towards you. You do want to mess with your sound during sound check, not so much while rehearsing.

 

[dancrocker]

Yes, sound checks are for dialing in sound for yourself and the group, especially monitor mixes, etc.

Soundcheck means making sure onstage volumes, tones and monitor mixes work for everyone.
Rehearsing means working on the songs to make sure everyone can follow the chart/knows their parts, etc.

Just stating that for clarification - I have no idea what kind of experience you or others reading this have and am not trying to talk down towards you. You do want to mess with your sound during sound check, not so much while rehearsing.

By "messing others up", I meant that if I need to listen to myself play from out of the congregation area, I need to deal with the delay associated with being a couple hundred feet away from the band. This causes me to play slightly late which, I assume, can throw others off. I'd rather be standing with the band and have someone else listen and tell me what needs to be adjusted. But, I guess I'll need to deal with things as they are for the time being.

 

[dancrocker]

I spent some time this evening in the church messing with my tone settings. I found that, for some reason, I had the drive set to about 4. I also had the contour up to about 5. I haven't a clue why I had the amp set this way. I think I had done so much unfocused screwing around with the controls that I ended up with settings that were just plain stupid. Anyways, these settings seemed to make the sound a little boomy and without much "character".

I ended up dropping the drive to about 1 and turning off the contour. I also turned down the bass level a bit and turned up the lo mid and mid controls a little. This seemed to even out the tone and remove the boominess. Even the guy who's helping us with sound this week (the closest we have to a sound guy) thought I blended better with the rest of the band.
I'm pretty sure this isn't where I'll leave things but I think it's a good start...certainly better than it was before.

Thanks again for all the help. Any more suggestions will be gladly accepted.