Basic Tuning/Intonation question.

[REDLAWMAN]

Grendle, what was that about making sure the strings were twisted when I put them on, please?

 

[251]

I've got the action very low; as low as it will go without rattles.

The relief isn't huge: I can't calibrate it, but it's about right judging by all professional set-ups I've seen/had done.

It's a MIA Standard 'P', 2010.

What I'm really getting at is that it's all very well saying check the 12th fretted note is good, but the notes lower down towards the neck are all a bit flat if the 12th is pitch-perfect band these are the notes I'm going to be playing, so isn't it better to get those to pitch and not really worry about the 12th?

Am I overlooking something simple here?

The tuner is a Boss tu-12ex (about £80) so not a cheap one.

That is the best you can expect from an "untempered" instrument. What you see/hear is a consequence of fretting the 12th fret. To get perfect pitch for every note you would need a string for each note, like a piano, a harp, etc.

The fact is, an audience will not hear the small pitch irregularity. Plus, once intonation is set you're done with it until you change the brand/model of the string.

 

[96tbird]

No you want to make sure the string is not twisted. Once you get it fully wrapped.around the tuner, with.a little tension on it, loosen it and push the ball end free of the tail so that any twisting is released.

 

[REDLAWMAN]

OK, now I see and understand.

So in actual fact, given that I only ever really play within the first 9 or 10 frets, then I'm really fortunate to have pretty much all of these notes registering as pitch-perfect, even though I'm slightly sharp at the 12th?

 

[JLS]

If you can't hear any problem, there is no problem. Don't be a slave to the tuner. use your ears.

^^^ What he said, especially the embolded part.

What I say: Tuners will get you into the ballpark, but you have to use your ears, to find your seats.

At the risk of hijacking this thread, and re-ranting over this: there seems to be a couple of generations of guitar/bass players, that not only don't know how to tune their instruments by ear, they don't know what an in-tune instrument sounds like. (This presupposes the understanding that a fretted instrument cannot be in, "perfect tune", everywhere.)

 

[JLS]

OK, now I see and understand.

So in actual fact, given that I only ever really play within the first 9 or 10 frets, then I'm really fortunate to have pretty much all of these notes registering as pitch-perfect, even though I'm slightly sharp at the 12th?

"Registering" in your ears, or on the tuner?

I can't stress enough: if you can't hear it, it ain't there!

 

[REDLAWMAN]

JLS: did you know any of those three things until someone else explained them to you...?

 

[REDLAWMAN]

I'm not being glib: I'm saying that you weren't born with an innate knowledge of these things and at some point, you learned them from someone (much as I am now from you)!

 

[96tbird]

Once again. Tune open strings. Set intonation on the twelfth fret. Put tuner away. Play bass.

 

[REDLAWMAN]

You know, you're right- ALL of you!!

I've learned so much today.

I played along to a bit of the old Kris Kristof' with it done my way (slightly sharp at the 12th, but bang-on notes according to my tuner down the neck) and you know what? It sounded horrific!!!

I went back, re-set up as advised (open string and 12th) and it sounded JOYFUL!!

Incidentally, all my bridge saddles line up beautifully in that neat, diagonal pattern now, too.......

Thanks everyone.

 

[96tbird]

^ That's because his bass is set up like ours! LOL.

 

[REDLAWMAN]

Good point......

 

[Pilgrim]

Being one of the old farts whose experience considerably predates electronic tuners, I am sometimes surprised by how obsessive people can become over getting things JUST SO with an electronic tuner. I understand why we all use these tools, and I also understand that most of us want to get intonation as accurate as possible.

But in doing so, we get so focused on getting the tuner reading perfect, and we lose sight of the fact that we're tuning and intonating an analog instrument that will be played in the mix of a band and heard by human ears in acoustic situations which vary greatly.

And the bottom line is what the human ear perceives. In fact, tuners can detect tiny differences from completely accurate pitch which the human ear cannot detect, and which are therefore irrelevant to the human perceiving the sound.

So I offer my thesis again: If you can't hear any problem, there is no problem. Don't be a slave to the tuner. use your ears.

 

[96tbird]

Pilgrim you are right on, I like my old quartz tuner with the anaolg needle scale. My digital with the LCD needle like display, I dunno, it`s just not real time!

 

[gaudenti]

I thought it was better to tune to the 12th-fret harmonic than to the open string. Something about it being a purer note so it's more accurate to quickly tune to?

 

[96tbird]

It sure is for my A's on all my bases. For some reason open A jumps around a lot but the harmonic is steady. So I do tune on the harmonics, check 12th fretted, then open.

 

[calebbarton]

^^^ What he said, especially the embolded part.

What I say: Tuners will get you into the ballpark, but you have to use your ears, to find your seats.

At the risk of hijacking this thread, and re-ranting over this: there seems to be a couple of generations of guitar/bass players, that not only don't know how to tune their instruments by ear, they don't know what an in-tune instrument sounds like. (This presupposes the understanding that a fretted instrument cannot be in, "perfect tune", everywhere.)

Ding. He wins this thread. Its going to be off a few cents here and there. That's just natural. Dont forget, how hard you fret the notes will change the tuning. Make sure you set your intonation with the actual fretting pressure you would use in a normal playing situation.

 

[gaudenti]

It sure is for my A's on all my bases. For some reason open A jumps around a lot but the harmonic is steady. So I do tune on the harmonics, check 12th fretted, then open.

So, I was curious to see what the waveforms actually look like for both open string and harmonic. First 2 waveforms below are the open "A" string, next 2 waveforms are "A" string harmonic at 12th fret. The harmonic is definitely a simpler signal, as expected. Last waveform is open "A" string picked (plucked? struck?) over the bridge pickup.

It was interesting "seeing" the different waveforms for the different notes, different places they are picked, and different strengths of picking. Well, I thought it was interesting. I could probably post a video if anyone might be interested.

Open "A" string, finger-picked over the neck pickup:

"A" string harmonic at 12th fret:

Open "A" string finger-picked over bridge pickup

(The spikes on the waveforms is just electrical noise. It is not part of the actual sound.)

 

[96tbird]

Well that 'splains it, thanks!