Double Bass Bass Bar Problems

[MollyKay]

I know nothing…but it is my understanding the 1937 – 1940 Kay’s had three ply tops and no sound post patch. I have two 1937 Kay’s #785 and #1152 and both have confirmed three ply tops and no sound post patch…and I use nothing heavier then gut or Spiro’s on these bases. My 1943 Kay did have the sound post patch and five ply top. I don’t know at what serial number Kay made the change from 3 ply to 5 ply tops but a guess would be after serial number 8500…but I have seen bass # 8534 and it had no sound post patch but did have the 5 ply top…so who knows for sure?

When I was searching for my first Kay I was told the 3 ply tops were more prize for their big boom…because of the thinner top. Not sure I buy that story…I think big boom comes from good set up and proper technique. My bass in the hands of a pro always sound better then when I play it.

 

[Zondra]

My 1940 Kay (#7535) does not have the sound hole patch. However my blonde Kay (the one with the seperated bass bar) does have the 3" sound hole patch. The blonde one is the one without a serial number, but is supposed to be a 1941.

Here is a direct quote from Roger Stower's Kay Bass CD (same person from kaybass.com) "A round disk should be in place under the sound post. I have only found a few of the very early basses without the disk."

I believe both basses are 5 ply. It is hard to tell how many plys they have! But they both look like 5 plys. Or is the darker layer between the lighter colored plys just the glue? Both bass tops have the same thickness.

I like using steel strings, and don't plan on changing them. Though they have always worked well on my favorite bass (#7535), I wonder if that's the problem on the blonde, and is part of the reason why the bass bar is seperating.

When I get the top off the bass & am working on fitting the new bass bar (I will be posting and asking LOTS of questions when I get to that point), what else can I do while I have the bass all opened up, not only just for maintenance, but also to strenghten the bass enough to keep putting steel strings on it?

 

[MT Spaces]

..... I use nothing heavier then gut or Spiro’s on these bases .....

..... Here is a direct quote from Roger Stower's Kay Bass CD (same person from kaybass.com) "A round disk should be in place under the sound post. I have only found a few of the very early basses without the disk."

I like using steel strings, and don't plan on changing them......

I am assuming that MollyKay means Spiro Weichs when she says Spiros. Zondra ..... You might want to try the lighter Spiro Weichs rather than the Spiro Mittels .... there is about 12% less tension with the Weichs. I've got Weich A & E strings on two basses and they sound good. Then you can have your steels and less tension at the same time .

For what it is worth .... MollyKay here at TalkBass relayed this info awhile back (Oct. 2006) when I was asking about the soundpost reinforcement disk .....

..... My '37 Kay M-4 does not have the "sound post patch" but my '43 does, so the change must have happen between '40-'43. I asked this very same question to Jack at Upton bass and his reply was if it did not come with a sound post patch don't put one in. My '37 has more "boom" then my '43 and they are both strung with Thomastik S42W. My opinion on the sound post patch is, it was started after the 3 ply tops ('37-'40) went to 5 ply tops to help destribute the higher tension of steel strings. Both my '37 and '43 have no domes or bulges on the back so I think it is okay with or with out a sound post patch as long as you care for the bass with the proper conditions...50% humidity, no direct sun light and if it is too hot or cold in the car for Fido it is the same for your bass .....

"...50% humidity, no direct sun light and if it is too hot or cold in the car for Fido it is the same for your bass ....."

Darn Good Advice ..... But it just ain't gonna happen where Zondra and I live in Montana and with our bass lifestyles (indoor-outdoor, day-night, hot-cold, summer-winter music jams) . But the good news is that old seasoned plywoody Kays handle the gamut of abusive conditions pretty dang well .

 

[MollyKay]

Thanks Bob…indeed I did mean to say Spiro Weich…thanks for catching that. And wow…you remember a post from 2006, dang your memory is good…I'm glad to see my memory is still pretty much the same. I guess the old timer’s dieses hasn’t affected my bass memory…just other parts of my memory.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

Hey Molly, for the record I have two '39s and a '38 here and they all have five-ply tops and a soundpost patch.

As far as I can tell, the tops got a little thicker when they became Englehardt. Still five plies but they measure just a little heavier than the earlier ones.

Another thing I'll have to start keeping track of!

 

[james condino]

Living in the heart of hard thumping bluegrass land these days, I see a LOT of old Kays. It's the Blueridge Cadillac, complete with a big shiny chrome bumper badge on the tailpiece. 90% of them have some kind of internal structural issues from a hard 50 years or more of playing. The loose bassbar ends is a common one. Whenever I have taken one off, my general impression was that it was a glue starved joint issue. If you look at the actual curvature of the original bar where it meets the top, there is a lot of contact area that is end grain- perhaps half or more. In the factory that end grain was not sized and the glue got soaked up into the pores, not leaving enough at the joint.

For folks not familiar with it, sizing is done prior to gluing and clamping with hot hide glue. A porous endgrain surface like the blocks or a bass bar are given an initial coat of glue and then set aside to dry. The basic idea is that this plugs the capillary action of the wood and allows a later application of glue to focus on the joint. In a large factory where you are making tens of thousands of different instruments a year, the pace is generally pretty fast and this is often overlooked; "clamp 'em up and git'r done..." (I can comfortably say this from having worked in one of the small boutique factories where we only made around 1000 instruments a year...).

Chuck Traeger's book gives a good example of the fix mentioned above on how to glue and clamp these using a long bionic syringe and a few clamps without removing the top. Your first attempt will probably feel like a giant ship in a bottle project. I agree with Arnold that just gluing it back down usually results in it popping loose again later; Chuck's linen patches add a bit more stability.

j.