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Double Bass bass bar

#23
I really don't want to beat this into the ground but what the heck, it's so much fun. Jeff, your worried about a film of epoxy as thick as well let's say FILM (which would also be the same thickness as the carpenters glue) changing the sound of the instrument but you would add a linen u-bolt to the end of the bass bar? I am not talking about 2 part bondo here. Yes epoxy can fail in the future just like the others if the wood is dirty but it is not any more difficult to clean up than say dried carpenters glue. I am not a bass bar gluing expert but I have reglued a million chairs. This is how I became a lover of epoxy. It holds better. Lasts longer. When I was a member of the Guild Of American Luthiers in 1979 at the convention in Winfield Kansas there was a guitar maker there giving a talk on how he attached his necks to the bodies with nothing at all except epoxy. Not even a dovetail joint, a BUTT joint with just epoxy! The two part stuff that calls for one hour clamping time. I believe he was actually hanged in the town square! But seriously these were expensive beautiful instruments. Think of the tension on that joint. I know he wrote at least one book but I never followed his career. I think his name was David Russell Young. I'd be interested if anyone knows of the condition of his epoxied guitars, 20 some years later. On a similar thread I've often wondered how a plywood bass would sound glued together with a super flexible adhesive like silicone or poly-seamseal, in the spirit of keeping everything vibrating.
 
#24
I know-get a life. Wellspal, Youv'e got me on the tonal diff. If there were a difference it would be surely be infinitesimal. But I wouldn't say i was worried about that. I do worry about epoxy removal and I guarantee that I've had about a million % more experience re epoxy removal from basses than you. i don't mean offense it's just an unfortunate fact. Re-gluing failed epoxy joints is a cumulative nightmare. The very first rule of lutherie is never do something that can't be undone.
Well, pal-You have cast dispersions regarding linen and tone. This I cannot accept as linen and I are very close. Linen was used by Stradivari on all his instruments-all the Itie greats used it! It is very compatible with wood in it's tonality. A linen "u-bolt"[funny] would also have an infinitesimal effect on tone and it would give an added measure of insurance. If you visit my website there are some pics of my use of linen on an Italian restoration-let me know what you think. jeff
 
#25
I have nothing against linen repairs. I was just making the tonality point. As a woodworker, cabinetmaker and occasional luthier for the past 30 years I do know something about gluing two pieces of wood together. If you are running across epoxied repairs that are a nightmare to clean-up I would suspect that they were executed really wrong in the first place and the same repair done with carpenters glue would be equally as difficult to clean-up. After all you're not soaking someones bass bar in water to get the old carpenters glue off, are you? Aren't you scraping and sanding no matter what the glue? I think whipping out arbitrary rules about lutherie can be misleading and make you sound, no offense here, condescending.

I think your web site is very impressive. You might want to revise that no carpenter glue ever used here line though. After all you are recommending it here.

I especially like your "wacky" wood tailpieces. Really nice touch. Have you ever tried osage orange for anything? Farmers used it as a hedge around their fields. Very colorful and gnarly when cut up. I'll send you some hunks if I ever come across some.
 
#27
Wellspal- When someone asks me a question here I like to respond-it's usually fun and always polite. But I feel that this must be my last post on this subject-I hope you understand.
It is interesting that you saw fit to comment on the statement about not using carpenters glue. My recommending it "here" and using it "there" are two different things. I still believe it is a better choice for Agrarian than epoxy.
Carpenters glue can be dissolved readily with vinegar and then rinsed with water. Epoxy must be scraped out and you run the risk of scraping through a ply. Even though I may be dead in twenty years I don't want to give any future luthiers any headaches.
I am sorry if I sounded condescending-but my aim here is first to have fun talking about basses and second to use my experience to give players some info if thay are interested. There is amazingly little literature out there on bass lutherie. Sometimes it is tough to express your knowledge without sounding like a know it all.
My rant is currently down for a revamp. I should get to it soon. Thanks, Jeff
 
#28
Jeff, Yes this has dragged on too long now and it is my fault. I realized the crux of our debate was based on me assuming that removing old carpenters glue and removing old epoxy was the same process. In the furniture repair business it pretty much is. Chair joints and other wooden furniture joints have way too much glue in them for vinegar to do much good. With your help it has finally dawned on me that the THIN film of (yellow)glue associated with any bass joint is possible to remove with vinegar. So not only will I stop comparing apples to oranges, basses to chairs I'll save the epoxy for the furniture side of my business. I totally agree with your assesment. I apologize if I was impolite along the way.

For anyone interested, there is a great article on glues at [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
If this address gets messed up just find the main page to FineWoodworking magazine, look under Feature Library. Go to Materials. The article is called A Working Guide To Glues.
 
#35
Please DO NOT reach inside your bass and try to rip out the bass bar, or rip it loose. This is a good way of taking the top part that it's glued to along with it especially with a carved top bass. I am continually amazed at the advice I read from people with no experience or knowledge about bass repair telling someone else what they should or should not do to their instrument. I've been making and repairing basses for nearly 30 years and have worked on basses from plywood wrecks to those worth $100,000. You probably wouldn't tell your Doctor how to do heart surgery and you'd resent someone like me trying to tell you how to do your job. You knew more about your job after two days than I will ever know about it, so respect your repairperson and respect your own lack of knowledge in this area.
My evil twin tells me however that you should go ahead and do what you want, because when you finally have to bring it to someone like me, I'll be able and have to charge you five times what it would have cost originally.
Secondly hyde glue when mixed and applied properly to a properly cleaned join will hold for hundreds of years, it's stronger than carpenters glue, and has scientificaly been shown to hold up better under heat and adverse conditions. Carpenters glue leaves a film between the pieces and doesn't transfer vibration as well. I can't tell you how many basses I've had to repair that were first repaired with carpenters glue so that the repair would last forever; forever sometimes being less than a week.

It's your bass. If you want to have some fun and repair it yourself go ahead, but I'm leaving surgery to my doctor, my car to my mechanic and you should do the same with your instrument, if you care about it.
 
#38
Martin, but seriously, if you carefully read this whole thread aren't all your concerns addressed? The warning about tearing inner veneer, the huge glue discussion, making it clear I have SOME knowledge and experience not ZERO as you suggest. Nobody is dis'ing an experienced bass luthier by offering some m.a.s.h. type advice on a PLYWOOD bass. The original question did imply farmerdude couldn't spend the bucks on removing the top and was looking for creative solutions. As long as you are making it perfectly clear that players should bring their broke basses to you or someone like you, which is what? about 30 guys in 50 states (unless your in New York of course) why not just share with the class what you would charge for this repair.
 
#39
Just find where the bass bar sits, get out your screw gun and sink some sheetrock screws right through the top. They'll pull that sucker right up! No, seriously, a good repair guy (or gal) can unzip part of the lower bout, and get some strong clamps in there thru the f-hole. The reason the lower bout needs to be opened is to work the glue in on a long blade of some sort. I'd probably use hide if I saw that it would close up. I agree with Sir Bollbach about covering the end in linen...
 
#40
Hello,
Can anyone tell me if there is any dependency between the bass bar tension and the tone color and volume of the bass sound?
Could you discuss the statements below:
Too strongly tensioned bass bar makes bass louder (but for the player only - not in general) boosts high and mid frequencies lacking the depth.
Low tensioned bass bar increases the lowest frequencies, bass vibrates more freely. For the player, bass tends to be quiet, but the audience can hear it well.
Is that true?
-sorry for my strange English:)
 

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