Not sure about that driver in the TL606. Would have to do some modeling to have a better idea.
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Bass Cabinet Build
- Thread starter KJP1990
- Start date
Not sure about that driver in the TL606. Would have to do some modeling to have a better idea.
The thing you have to understand is that the design of the cabinet must match the traits of the speaker to perform well.
This is absolutely necessary in bass speaker cabinets. It's not so necessary in cabinets for higher frequencies, especially for guitar. Guitar cabs often have an open back - the cabinet is literally there just to hold the speakers, nothing more.
Bass speaker cabinets are designed using the technical specifications of the speaker that will be put into them. These are called Thiele-Small parameters, (often referred to as "T/S", explained here.
Using these T/S specifications, along with the internal dimensions of a speaker box and the size+length of the cabinets port, you can calculate how well (or how poorly) a specific bass driver will perform in a box.
If you put a bass speaker in a cabinet that wasn't designed for it, you will not get good bass response. If the cabinet design isn't at least in the ballpark of what the speaker needs, the speaker will easily distort and even become completely blown at fairly low wattage and volume levels. A bass speaker needs a properly designed cabinet much like a house needs a properly designed foundation.
No offense, just trying to explain, but saying you think it's "silly" that you can't just randomly put bass speakers in any box you care to try is very much like saying it's "silly" that you can't just thow any ingredient you might find in a kitchen into your soup - including drain cleaner.
This is absolutely necessary in bass speaker cabinets. It's not so necessary in cabinets for higher frequencies, especially for guitar. Guitar cabs often have an open back - the cabinet is literally there just to hold the speakers, nothing more.
Bass speaker cabinets are designed using the technical specifications of the speaker that will be put into them. These are called Thiele-Small parameters, (often referred to as "T/S", explained here.
Using these T/S specifications, along with the internal dimensions of a speaker box and the size+length of the cabinets port, you can calculate how well (or how poorly) a specific bass driver will perform in a box.
If you put a bass speaker in a cabinet that wasn't designed for it, you will not get good bass response. If the cabinet design isn't at least in the ballpark of what the speaker needs, the speaker will easily distort and even become completely blown at fairly low wattage and volume levels. A bass speaker needs a properly designed cabinet much like a house needs a properly designed foundation.
No offense, just trying to explain, but saying you think it's "silly" that you can't just randomly put bass speakers in any box you care to try is very much like saying it's "silly" that you can't just thow any ingredient you might find in a kitchen into your soup - including drain cleaner.
If you want Ampeg tone built into your speaker, the Eminence Beta is a good way to get there. For some more sensitivity and power handling, look at the Legend CB158. Your Widow could work, although know those have a sort of aggresive "grindy" character in the mids some people like and others don't.
All those "will work" in a tl-606 design, possibly with a bit of adjustment to the ports, though a slightly larger box may be better. Could probably make it "bigger enough" by adjusting the plans for 1/2" ply but keeping the outer dimensions the same.
The 3015, Faital, etc. are a bit higher performers, though part of the "Ampeg tone" is the midbass bump you get from putting speakers in boxes that "on paper" are not "just right".
All those "will work" in a tl-606 design, possibly with a bit of adjustment to the ports, though a slightly larger box may be better. Could probably make it "bigger enough" by adjusting the plans for 1/2" ply but keeping the outer dimensions the same.
The 3015, Faital, etc. are a bit higher performers, though part of the "Ampeg tone" is the midbass bump you get from putting speakers in boxes that "on paper" are not "just right".
I am going to run some design ideas by you all and see what comes of that if not I'll figure something else out and stop coming off as ignorant (which I hope I'm not).
My original plan for a 1X15 was 24X22X14 totally I closed using a Kappalite 3015 based off the PF115 which is closed and rear ported (I would test to see if I want/need the port)
My new idea is a 2X10 with a tweeter that is 24X21X14 with a 1" bottom slatted port like the fEarful designs using 2 Eminence Beta 10s and a compression driver.. Based off the PF210
Do either of those ideas seem like reasonable builds?
My original plan for a 1X15 was 24X22X14 totally I closed using a Kappalite 3015 based off the PF115 which is closed and rear ported (I would test to see if I want/need the port)
My new idea is a 2X10 with a tweeter that is 24X21X14 with a 1" bottom slatted port like the fEarful designs using 2 Eminence Beta 10s and a compression driver.. Based off the PF210
Do either of those ideas seem like reasonable builds?
The Betas will have more built in Ampeg tone. 3015 would play louder per watt. 14" exterior depth is a little shallow for a bass cab.
Your impedance options with the 10's would be 4 or 16 ohms. That could be made switchable to allow stacking more cabs.
In most cases, having a single, 4 ohm small cab to "get all the power out of your amp" is an excersize in futility and leads to blown speakers. They'll reach their excursion limits ( can't move back and forth any farther ), before they'll hit their "wattage limits". That's a spec you won't see in commercial bass cabs save for a very damn few specialized builders.
The 3015 could likely take what your amp has to give at 8ohms because you'll lose about half of it to thermal compression at high power levels (another spec you won't see from commercial builders ). High watt numbers sells speakers.
Based on that information what do you suggest? I was going to mess around with WinId later today and see if that will help. I don't plan to ver dime this amp does that affect the issue of blowing the speakers at 4ohm?
Based on that information what do you suggest? I will make the cabinet deeper out to 16" on my design plans (I am still trying to keep this portable) I was going to mess around with WinId later today and see if that will help. I don't plan to ever dime this amp does that affect the issue of blowing the speakers at 4ohms?
Yes. A 500 watts amp doesn't put out 500 watts unless you crank it.
You need both power and speakers to make loud. On bass, more speakers gets us louder than throwing more power at the same amount of, or fewer speakers does.
Let's back up a bit. What are your current, and immediate future, output needs?
Playing at home?. Jamming with friends? Tame blues trio or country down at the small local bar? Hard rock/metal in that same bar? Larger clubs? Any PA support? Play outdoors much ( you lose bass out there and have to make it back up ). Large festival stages? Stadiums/arenas?
I play in a band small clubs/bars and always have PA support to be mic'd up or go direct. I usually never play outdoors. No large festivals lol.
Our band plays 90's music mostly grunge and hard rock.
So, you need stage volume, not "fill the whole room with the rig alone" volume. How loud that is depends on how loud your drummer and guitarist run. A 210 or 115 can do it if they're controlled. If you got Bonham and Paige over there, it won't cut it.
Re: your cabinet dimensions......that's where the modeling programs ( like WinISD or others ) come in. Various different speakers work best in various different enclosure sizes and port tunings. You can just stick a speaker in a box and it most certainly will make sound....sometimes even pretty good sound.....but without doing that homework, it may likely not be working as best as it could. Some speakers require a larger box to make bass than others. Some may sound muddy or thin when just sticking them in haphazardly made boxes. Work all that out, then you'll know about the box size for the desired speaker, etc.
Some folks will say "it needs this box at this tuning" to be correct or whatever, and that may be true from a technical perspective, but again, part of "that tone", comes from sticking too much speaker in not enough box, which results in less bass extension than could be had, a less "smooth" response curve than could be had, but still results in a sound we call "fat" and "thump" and "classic".
Play with WinISD a bit (it's free), come up with what you think is a good speaker/box/port combination, then start modelling different speakers in that same box design and watch what happens.
yeah it's not like I'm playing Yankee Stadium I will test out some stuff with the program and hopefully something comes up I'm trying to keep this portable so coming up with the idea for a 4X10 or something like that to get the full 500 watts and stay portable is very difficult
Stop being concerned with getting "the full 500 watts". The difference in perceived volume from 350w to 500w is very very minimal.
Eminence provides sample workable plans for all of their speakers. Grafting an off the shelf crossover and HF driver will get you to average commercial cab-land fairly easily.
Situations that are about "one louder" than yours, meaning driving typical small bar rooms with the rig alone, but putting a bit of me in the PA at stuff bigger than that, I've found a single 4ohm, "good, but not uber top-notch quality" 212 is a sweet spot. Would mean a single cabinet that's about 4 cubic feet internally instead of 2 or 3, but it hangs nicely. Can keep you in the mix when drummer and guitard get a little "enthusiastic", but still a somewhat compact, easily maneuvered cab. Certainly not a "big cab", but more "oomph" than most any 210 or 115.
Indeed. That's pretty close to what commercial cabs are. By DIY, you can give it a form factor and looks of your own.
Big +1
If you doubled your amps output @8 ohms (from 350w to 700w) you would only gain at best +3db
To double the volume of your 350w, you would need 10X the power (3500w).
SPEAKERS make the difference, NOT "getting all the watts".
So your suggesting that I build a 2X12 cab?..
Also as a side note is there a tutorial on WinISD I get that I need to put the speaker(s) in at the beginning and can hit optimize to get the ideal box shape. How do I input what my amp's power is and how do I read the graph (what should I look for)?
For example I built a cabinet with the Kappa Pro 15 and this is my reading:
Driver : Eminence Kappa Pro 15
Project by : KJP1990
Project for : you
--
Number of drivers : 1
Box type : Closed
Box size : 226.9 l
Relative
Freq Gain SPL
[Hz] [dB] [dB]
53.00 -0.49 119.51
58.00 -0.34 119.66
63.00 -0.25 119.75
68.00 -0.18 119.82
73.00 -0.14 119.86
78.00 -0.10 119.90
83.00 -0.08 119.92
88.00 -0.06 119.94
93.00 -0.05 119.95
98.00 -0.04 119.96
After spending most of the day on WinISD these are the two cabinets I have come up with
a 1X15 using a Kappa Pro 15 LFC in a 24Wx37Hx15D cabinet ported with 4 ports in the corners that are 2in wide.
the other is a 2X10 Using 2 Delta Lite 2510 in a 32Wx21Hx14D with 2 bottom ports measuring 2H and 16W and 7D.
Which of those would be better based off the other information I've given you throughout the thread..?
a 1X15 using a Kappa Pro 15 LFC in a 24Wx37Hx15D cabinet ported with 4 ports in the corners that are 2in wide.
the other is a 2X10 Using 2 Delta Lite 2510 in a 32Wx21Hx14D with 2 bottom ports measuring 2H and 16W and 7D.
Which of those would be better based off the other information I've given you throughout the thread..?
