Right there is close to flat instead of the "MultiScoop" contour plus eq illustrated. I would still HPF the guitar at the desk.
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Bass is TOO loud!
- Thread starter Bob McAlister
- Start date
I've done a handful of gigs over the years where I found myself in this type of bass-too-loud, "no win" situation. As I've split my time between doing live sound and playing bass, I sometimes feel compelled to go overboard to make a statement. I don't necessarily recommend this, but when the PA is also carrying the bass, I've shut my stage amp/monitor off completely. Then if there's a complaint, it's with whomever is mixing FOH, not my stage volume. Doing this ain't fun, but I can deal with it and if it makes everyone else happy, then so be it, and hope for better next gig.
OTOH, I've also gone the other direction, and not done a damn thing and just played whatever volume/tone I thought fit the stage mix from my vantage point. IOW, fcuk the universe, and if you don't like it, fire me. That's never happened yet. I also don't recommend this, unless you're prepared to piss people off and lose your gig.
Funny anecdote: I once did a gig where the FOH mixer insisted on mic'ing my stage rig speakers in addition to my fully modeled direct feed to the desk. I told him that, since the stage rig speakers were full range - amplifying the same DI modeled tone (with cab sim) that I was sending to FOH - that it probably wouldn't yield the result he wanted. But it wasn't my stage or mix and he insisted, so fine, mic my FRFR cabinet. LOL.
About half way through the performance, he kept on telling me to turn down...turn down...turn down...so I shut the stage rig OFF. Within a few seconds, all-of-a-sudden we could all hear an odd sounding "haunting" low end feedback. My bass speaker mic was feeding back in the FOH. I knew what had happened, but got a chuckle watching him scramble to find the feedback. It didn't really matter...we were playing to empty seats and bar staff... a suck gig all around.
OTOH, I've also gone the other direction, and not done a damn thing and just played whatever volume/tone I thought fit the stage mix from my vantage point. IOW, fcuk the universe, and if you don't like it, fire me. That's never happened yet. I also don't recommend this, unless you're prepared to piss people off and lose your gig.
Funny anecdote: I once did a gig where the FOH mixer insisted on mic'ing my stage rig speakers in addition to my fully modeled direct feed to the desk. I told him that, since the stage rig speakers were full range - amplifying the same DI modeled tone (with cab sim) that I was sending to FOH - that it probably wouldn't yield the result he wanted. But it wasn't my stage or mix and he insisted, so fine, mic my FRFR cabinet. LOL.
About half way through the performance, he kept on telling me to turn down...turn down...turn down...so I shut the stage rig OFF. Within a few seconds, all-of-a-sudden we could all hear an odd sounding "haunting" low end feedback. My bass speaker mic was feeding back in the FOH. I knew what had happened, but got a chuckle watching him scramble to find the feedback. It didn't really matter...we were playing to empty seats and bar staff... a suck gig all around.
No wonder your sound is boomy-you are actually boosting bass frequencies at several stages: 1. your instrument, 2. contour knob, 3. bass knob. I would highly recommend starting with "flat" setting. It means all the EQ knobs at noon and, most importantly, the Contour knob counteclockwise (all the way). Make slight changes only if really needed.
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IMHO, the heart of the problem lies in the above statement.
You should understand that your rig is YOUR monitor, not THEIRS. Leave it up to your bandmates to what extent they want to listen to you.
I always set up my rig so that I can hear myself. I try not to interfere with their monitoring so I place my rig as far as possible from my bandmates and point it at a direction away from them. When I am happy with my sound then I ask my bandmates whether my sound is too much or too little for them. If they ask me to change, I try to accomodate their wishes. I am asked to turn up more often.
I want them to be happy and enjoy playing with me. They appreciate it.
Yep, I agree-there is a work to be done by the BL as well. You should try to explain him that he doesn't need to take care of the lows when you two play together-you will take care of them for him.
The thing is that if he doesn't change his approach, it is you who needs to find a way to make it work. Competeing for the same frequencies is not a way forward. What I would do is to leave the bass knob flat and find a mid frequency which he doesn't occupy where I can cut through. He seems to have his guitar scooped (mids down to 9 o'clock) so there should be sonic space for you.
In order to do that, you might find the EQ on your GK amp limiting. BMC pedal from E.W.S. would be very helpful. You can also use any other preamp as long as it has (semi)parametric (sweepable) mids.
Good luck!
Bass Mid Control 2｜E.W.S.
But you are not dealing with an acoustic guitarist demanding all the bottom end be his alone. If you were you would be in the same cart because instead of being asked for more it would be for less.
I am, actually. One of my bands had been playing without bass before I joined them (two guitars, cajon). So the acoustic guitar player is used to boost bass freqs on his guitar to substitute for (previously missing) bass instrument. It took me a lot of speaking and explaining to make him change his sound....and I need to repeat it from time to time to remind him...
That being said, I still think that my comment stands. The OP stated that two independent people (the BL and the keyboard player) asked him to turn his rig away from them...and that he thinks that his instrument "should be noticed". What I take from that is that he points his rig at them and he wants them to hear him. That was the understanding upon which I made my comment. I wouldn't point my rig at my bandmates unless I am asked to do so...
I agree, though, that the band leader's habit of boosting the bass freqs is part of the problem and a rather significant one.
Start with everything at twelve o’clock and try that for awhile, you will get used to it and will be able to adjust slightly depending on the venue to keep that more defined tone in the mix.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
I remember hearing Abe Laboriel Sr saying he once did the same, turned off his amp on stage as an experiment and afterwards was so told by the sound guy that the bass never sounded better. That's when I realized how the low stage volume makes it so much easier to mix. But I admit I really enjoy wicked stage volume. Or at least hearing myself well.
Another Abe story was that I saw him play his usual crazy mad self but his only amp was this 1x10 SWR Baby Blue combo. I offered to help him schlep it to his car afterwards around the block which he was gracious about. But I was thinking man, I'd go nuts with such a small amp playing the intense music he played.
Your EQ settings are too bass-heavy as noted here many times. That said, there is no reason the acoustic guitar should have his bass setting at 3:00 if there’s a bass player there. He’s EQ’d for solo playing, and he likes boomy bass from his Martin. You BOTH need to turn down the bass EQ. I agree with folks’ recommendations for your settings, but I don’t think this can be solved if he’s setting bass to 3:00.
High pass filter can do wonders for tightening up low end. Removing the right about of bottom can add a lot of punch with a perceived increase in volume, while youre actually turned down a little.
Also bass is a funny creature. Move around some while doing sound check. Bass waves are loooonnnggggg. The lower you go, the longer the wave becomes. If you're standing close to your cab you may not be hearing much of the meat of your sound. Add in room nodes and you could have a 20 db spike at certain frequencies just a few feet away from you. Ideally, check your sound standing where your band mates will be. This should give you a good idea of what's going on. If someone is running the house sound, you only need to worry about your monitoring. If there is no sound guy , check your sound from the audience position as well.
Cab location can play a critical role as well. Moving it a few feet or changing the front angle can really clear things up in some rooms.
Depending on someone's position in the room they may be getting a lot of unintended reflections piling up on their position causing them to hear the lows more than anything. Cancellations can cause massive dips in critical areas making your mates literally unable to hear what they are doing.No room is perfect but walking it and eqing accordingly will give you a good balance and keep everyone happy.
Also bass is a funny creature. Move around some while doing sound check. Bass waves are loooonnnggggg. The lower you go, the longer the wave becomes. If you're standing close to your cab you may not be hearing much of the meat of your sound. Add in room nodes and you could have a 20 db spike at certain frequencies just a few feet away from you. Ideally, check your sound standing where your band mates will be. This should give you a good idea of what's going on. If someone is running the house sound, you only need to worry about your monitoring. If there is no sound guy , check your sound from the audience position as well.
Cab location can play a critical role as well. Moving it a few feet or changing the front angle can really clear things up in some rooms.
Depending on someone's position in the room they may be getting a lot of unintended reflections piling up on their position causing them to hear the lows more than anything. Cancellations can cause massive dips in critical areas making your mates literally unable to hear what they are doing.No room is perfect but walking it and eqing accordingly will give you a good balance and keep everyone happy.
In principle, every player in the band should be playing their part with an ear for the overall mix.
BUT, there are a ton of variables that often prevent that kind of ensemble work.
First, you have to have a studied understanding of what the whole mix should be. This is often a huge stumbling point, because people tend to hear the mix they want to hear when listening to music rather than what is actually there. In other words, many uninformed people will primarily focus on the guitar, for example, in a recording and not hear the rest of the instruments. That kind of misunderstanding causes all kinds of fun at live mix time.
Second, the BL and Club Manager are always right. Even when they are wrong. There are some famous examples. Can’t recall ATM, but either Becker or Fagen in Steely Dan are notorious for zipping out the bass in live performance, even though their recordings have essential bass lines driving them. Whole bunch of top tier bass players filling that seat have had to deal with having their instrument minimized in the mix. Grin and bear it. It’s a paid gig.
What is and what should be are two entirely different things. One beautiful thing about the IEM system is that you can set your own mix; and then if the BL, SE, and/or Club Manager trash the bass signal....well, then it’s on them as the bass player blissfully boogies along. May sound like garbage in the house, but not your problem.
Really great gigs where everything is firing on all cylinders are rare, IME. You need to seriously appreciate them when they happen. The rest are just another gig.
BUT, there are a ton of variables that often prevent that kind of ensemble work.
First, you have to have a studied understanding of what the whole mix should be. This is often a huge stumbling point, because people tend to hear the mix they want to hear when listening to music rather than what is actually there. In other words, many uninformed people will primarily focus on the guitar, for example, in a recording and not hear the rest of the instruments. That kind of misunderstanding causes all kinds of fun at live mix time.
Second, the BL and Club Manager are always right. Even when they are wrong. There are some famous examples. Can’t recall ATM, but either Becker or Fagen in Steely Dan are notorious for zipping out the bass in live performance, even though their recordings have essential bass lines driving them. Whole bunch of top tier bass players filling that seat have had to deal with having their instrument minimized in the mix. Grin and bear it. It’s a paid gig.
What is and what should be are two entirely different things. One beautiful thing about the IEM system is that you can set your own mix; and then if the BL, SE, and/or Club Manager trash the bass signal....well, then it’s on them as the bass player blissfully boogies along. May sound like garbage in the house, but not your problem.
Really great gigs where everything is firing on all cylinders are rare, IME. You need to seriously appreciate them when they happen. The rest are just another gig.
