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Bass on Singer-Songwriter stuff

S

stranded horse

Dec 8, 2009
320
5
outer space
Disclosures
[ ] yes [ ] no
#1
Hello Justin,
first I have to say you are by far my favorite bassist alive, and from the stuff I heard you are one of the most versatile bassists around, that's why I direct this question to you.
I've done recordings and mixing for this singer-songwriter project of a friend of mine, really great songs, kind of Nick-Drake-ish, but a bit more simple.
Now he told me he wants a band to back him, and asked me to join on bass. I am really honored by his request, because I see a lot of potential in his music, and it would be a great opportunity for me to learn a new style of playing. It's mainly ballad-ish stuff, but I feel this stuff would deserve more than just plain root note playing, but I'm not sure.
The only time I really noticed the bass in singer-songwriter music was the stuff Jaco did with Joni Mitchell, but I'm certainly not going to do that :eek: (I love it, but I can't pull that off)
Do you have any suggestions for me? Did you ever record bass for singer-songwriters? Or have any other suggestions what to listen to, to get some cool ideas, and other general tips?


I also want to say thank you for being a big inspiration to me!

cheers,
Franz
 
#2
OH JEEZ thank you Franz! Very kind of you to give me such praise.

I record bass for singer-songwriters constantly. Beck comes to mind. Corey Chisel, Dido, Adam Stephens, Cass McCombs, lots more .

You should just go back and listen to '70's arty folky music. Maybe go to Spotify and find similar things. Robert Wyatt, Skip Spence certainly, and many others from the NIck Drake universe.
 
#3
Try checking out the work of some modern singer-songwriters if you can. A few that come to mind right off the bat are Ryan Adams, Ray LaMontagne and Alexei Murdoch. They're doing some great things now, and usually within the context of band arrangements. I can't say that the bass stands out in their band arrangements, but in that context you really need to look at the overall band sound rather than a single instrument.
 
#5
I'm most proud of the stuff that's ultra minimal, to be frank. Check out the song "End of the Day" from Beck's Sea Change. I really feel that is a great example of a perfect approach for an acoustic-based "singer songwriter" song, for lack of a better descriptive.

Sounds like, with your reference to Jaco, that you might be looking for examples that justify very sophisticated, busy or jazzy playing within singer songwriter landscape. I'm not really your man for that, but perhaps others can come up with some examples.

However, when I listen to a song by some of my favorite amazing singer/songwriter types such as Neil Young, Alex Chilton, John Cale, Tim Buckley, Richard Thompson, Van Morrison, Randy Newman, Chris Bell, Carole King, Laura Nyro, John Martyn, Skip Spence, Lou Reed, John Lennon etc, the bass on most of those records and (and so many more) is so sublime, but rarely very busy. And certainly not just root notes, so you'll find lots do dig into there. All worth studying very intently, I feel.

The only other example I can think of where the bass sometimes gets truly more busy/fancy is Paul Simon. Lots of great records with him, too.

Anyone else?

JMJ
 
#6
Mmm... Yeah, I'm with you there. I can't really think of any better examples to cite, but at least in my personal experience, I try to keep things simple and serve the song/lyric as my number 1 rule, and if I get inspired to do something a little out of the box (and I mean truly emotionally inspired) I give it a go. It usually ends up being very apparent right away if it's a good idea or not, and we go with it or don't, and there is no hard feelings if it's not good.

I think the main thing to consider/remember/strive for when working with singer songwriters is that the name of the game is emotion. Get into the headspace of the lyric, let it move you, and trust your instincts.

Oh, and I thought of another good player to listen to: Mike Rivard on the Jonatha Brooke records. He's an friend of mine and never seems to get any credit he deserves for bloody brilliant insightful killer playing. (His band Club d'Elf is really cool too if you like world music.)
 
#8
Justin,

Wow, for some reason I didn't realize you posted on here. Just wanted to put out there that Sea Change is one of my absolute favorite bass albums. I was playing in some pretty crappy jam bands in college when that album came out and it pretty much turned my idea of bass on it's ear. The bass work on Paper Tiger alone is hard to beat.
Very cool that you take the time to contribute here. Props.

Nathan
 
#10
jmjbassplayer said:
I'm most proud of the stuff that's ultra minimal, to be frank. Check out the song "End of the Day" from Beck's Sea Change. I really feel that is a great example of a perfect approach for an acoustic-based "singer songwriter" song, for lack of a better descriptive.

Sounds like, with your reference to Jaco, that you might be looking for examples that justify very sophisticated, busy or jazzy playing within singer songwriter landscape. I'm not really your man for that, but perhaps others can come up with some examples.

However, when I listen to a song by some of my favorite amazing singer/songwriter types such as Neil Young, Alex Chilton, John Cale, Tim Buckley, Richard Thompson, Van Morrison, Randy Newman, Chris Bell, Carole King, Laura Nyro, John Martyn, Skip Spence, Lou Reed, John Lennon etc, the bass on most of those records and (and so many more) is so sublime, but rarely very busy. And certainly not just root notes, so you'll find lots do dig into there. All worth studying very intently, I feel.

The only other example I can think of where the bass sometimes gets truly more busy/fancy is Paul Simon. Lots of great records with him, too.

Anyone else?

JMJ
Click to expand...


Oh, maybe I gave the wrong impression that I want to play jazzy Solos behind the singer like Jaco did, but that's not the case.
Your example of 'End of the Day' pretty much nails it what I'm looking for.
The bass is subtle, but an important part of the song, and has it's own melody. That's exactly the things I want to be able to come up with.
By the way, I love the musical reference to Serge Gainsbourg on Paper Tiger!

cheers,
Franz
 
#12
Stranded: sounds good, I getcha. Thanks regarding Paper Tiger. That was a fun homage to make.

jallenbass: sure, definitely. I think it'd be adding more syncopation as a matter of course. Songs dictate, we listen.

And by the way, all: if you possibly don't agree with or understand that tired old cliche about "serving the song", then you probably simply haven't listened to or played enough song-oriented music! Because that's the only thing that really transcends in the end.

It's a cliche because it's such a profound truth.

Best,
JMJ
 
#18
There's another bassist that Joni Mitchell had from the same time period named Max Bennett. He was in the L.A. Express. Played some really cool lines on Joni's stuff. I learned "Furry Sings The Blues", it's a really great line, very tasteful. Also, a bassist named Bill Bodine played with Joan Armatrading in the 70's. I learned one of his lines and man did it kick my butt!
 
#19
OH you guys this is such a cool thread! Totally dig Max Bennett, and didn't know about Bill Bodine, but I totally grew up on Joan Armatrading who is a vastly under-appreciated songwriting/vocal talent.

+100 to Joe Osborn on the Carpenter's stuff - wow!

Thank you for the props Sigmafloyd!

Yes, Leland on the JT stuff - so supreme. Also the Stephen Stills solo stuff, whoever that was. And all Art Garfunkel solo and Paul Simon solo.

And lotsa lotsa cool bass on the yacht rock tip, but I suppose that's not really what we're discussing here...yet. :)


JMJ
 
#20
Yeah!!! Yacht Rock!!!--lots of great musicianship all around in that stuff (that term cracks me up so much, being a child of the 70's---I think we covered a Pablo Cruise song in my first junior high school band)

I would also throw in the late great Dee Murray (with Elton John) for exquisite bass on singer-songwriter stuff. I get chills listening to some of his playing.
 

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