Bass Tone Help!

[ZenG]

Sorry if this is posted in the wrong forum I'm new here. I'm having issues without getting a good clean tone. I have an Ibanez GSR200 and a Hartke HA3500 Head with an Ebony Cabinent (Don't know if that's what its called it just says Ebony at the bottom of the cab). Obviously my equipment isn't great but I don't have the money to upgrade at the moment. Ive tried fiddling around with the amp and bass but can't get a good sound out of it. It just sounds boomy and too bass heavy but when I turn the offending fredquencies down using the graphic eq on the amp it makes the volume go down and the sound becomes thin and when I turn the volume up the boomy sound returns. Also I can't hear myself playing over a cd player at low volume because of the overly boomy sound and even when I get rid of the boomy frequencies I still can't hear myself. Ive only been playing for a year and a half so I don't know heaps about eq-ing and whatnot. My amps is currently set as follows:
Input: Active
Tube Preamp: 12 o'clock
SS Preamp: 12 o'clock
Compressor: 12/1 o'clock
Graphic EQ: Flat with 64 and 125Hz turned down a notch (they increase booming sound) and a boost to the mid range frequencies (250Hz-2KHz)
Low Pass Filter: 10 o'clock
High Pass Filter: 12 o'clock
Master Volume: No idea the notch that shows you where its set is gone (I bought the amp second-hand)

My bass is currently set as follows:
Bass Boost: 0
Neck PU: 1/2 way up
Bridge PU: 0
Tone: Just above 0 (It just makes it sound awfully trebley)

I hope I gave enough info. If any of you fellow bassists out there could help me out Id really appreciate it.

Turn your neck pickup down a ways. Turn your bridge pickup up a tad. Work on this blend. for starters.

Don't overly boost the mids and highmids on your amp.

Room size can make a huge difference. Can you try a different room?

As others have said, standing right in front of the amp is not a great idea.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Oh, and Bad Example also reminded me, NEVER LISTEN TO YOUR BASS FROM RIGHT NEXT TO IT! Bass waves are longer, so they don't fully develop till farther away from your amp. You need a good 20ft chord and make the adjustments, then stand all the way at the end of the chord to hear it. Otherwise, you aren't hearing it properly.

you're not wrong but you're WAY wrong about the physical description. All frequencies are fully formed as they leave the speaker at the speed of sound. Up close all you hear is the speaker. 20ft away you hear room reflections as well.

 

[lomo]

No, not an urban myth. I have zero idea where you go that from. Maybe you need to go back to high school science?

LOW Frequency waves are, by definition, longer then high frequency waves. Its science dude. Its not that you can't hear them when you are in front of a speaker, nor that you can't do things to manipulate the way they come out of headphones or tiny speakers (Bose, by the way, put a whole lot of development money into making their bass supreme, and it involves a longer path for the bass wave) But, to get the actual tone and volume, you have to be far enough away for the wave to have made a couple of complete lengths. Standing right in front of your amp, or close to it, you will NEVER hear what is actually coming out of the amp properly. And, especially when it comes to tone, even more important.

Feel free to think what you will.

My degrees are in science. I get the physics. Your suggestion that I return to high school is not appreciated. I respectfully assure you are mistaken and recommend the following TB discussion that already addressed this subject. Note that 1 participant (at least) is an engineer for QSC. Perhaps he also needs remedial classes.

About "bass frequencies need space to develope" myth

Bass sounds different at different points in a room, but this has nothing to do with "development" of the wave over a distance. Have a nice day.

 

[jlepre]

What is this Ebony cab? Maybe I'm out of the loop, but I've never heard of this brand. Also what speaker config is this cab? 18", 15", 10"?

EDIT: Using a little searching I found this thread: Ebony bass gear

Still would like to know the speaker config.

 

[middy]

Another internet "expert" for the ignore list.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

No, not an urban myth. I have zero idea where you go that from. Maybe you need to go back to high school science?

... Its science dude...

Two feet away what you are hearing is dominated by the nearfield direct response.

Twenty feet away what you are hearing is dominated by the power response.

The more directional the cab is in the mids and highs, the greater the spectral discrepancy will be between the nearfield response and the power response.

A common technique for measuring subwoofer systems where anechoic or ground-plane measurements are impractical is "close-micing". This is where the microphone is placed within millimeters of the cone, effectively excluding the room's influence. If it's a ported sub, then the port is also miced and the relative levels of the two curves are corrected for woofer cone area and port area and then they are spliced together, taking the phase response into account of course. My point being, if it took 20 feet for bass waves to develop, not only would headphone listening be devoid of bass, but subwoofer designers could not rely on close-micing. I'm a subwoofer designer... one might even say, an "award winning" subwoofer designer (The Absolute Sound magazine, 2015 Product of the Year award).

I do not dispute that it SOUNDS LIKE the bass doesn't fully develop until you are 20 feet away from the cab, nor that the tone 20 feet away is a better representation of what the audience hears out in the venue. But the actual mechanism is a reduction in the relative balance of mid and high frequency energy at 20 feet away, NOT an increase in low frequency energy.

A large cab (like an 8x10) approximates a line source up close, so the change in SPL up close is less than point source theory would predict. A large horn-loaded cab can actually approximate a planar source up close, resulting in an even greater discrepancy with normally expected point source behavior. Both seem to support the theory that it takes distance for bass wavelengths to develop, but actually that is incorrect, and there are other mechanisms at play.

It's science, dude.

 

[BadExample]

A large cab (like an 8x10) approximates a line source up close, so the change in SPL up close is less than point source theory would predict. A large horn-loaded cab can actually approximate a planar source up close, resulting in an even greater discrepancy with normally expected point source behavior. Both seem to support the theory that it takes distance for bass wavelengths to develop, but actually that is incorrect, and there are other mechanisms at play.

^^^Makes complete sense.

You can send me the subs you design and I will operationally test them for you free of charge

 

[DukeLeJeune]

You can send me the subs you design and I will operationally test them for you free of charge

Thank you for your generous offer!

 

[Rib 13]

First questions I need to ask are:

1) What is your definition of "good tone"? What tones are you trying to sound like? (Marcus Miller, Geddy Lee, Tool, Jamerson, etc)

2) Depending on what your good tone definition is, what kind of strings (rounds, flats, other?) and how new are they?

3) Fingers? Pick? Slap? All?

4) any FX or processing?

 

[CodyGBass]

First questions I need to ask are:

1) What is your definition of "good tone"? What tones are you trying to sound like? (Marcus Miller, Geddy Lee, Tool, Jamerson, etc)

2) Depending on what your good tone definition is, what kind of strings (rounds, flats, other?) and how new are they?

3) Fingers? Pick? Slap? All?

4) any FX or processing?

1) Cliff Burton, Chris Wolstenholme, Geezer Butler, Flea, Tim Commerford, John Paul Jones, Justin Chancellor
2) I'm using Ernie Ball Hybrid Slinkys (.40-.105) Roundwounds that are about two months old.
3) All but mostly fingers and pick.
4) Overdrive and Chorus

 

[TRichardsbass]

Two feet away what you are hearing is dominated by the nearfield direct response.

Twenty feet away what you are hearing is dominated by the power response.

The more directional the cab is in the mids and highs, the greater the spectral discrepancy will be between the nearfield response and the power response.

A common technique for measuring subwoofer systems where anechoic or ground-plane measurements are impractical is "close-micing". This is where the microphone is placed within millimeters of the cone, effectively excluding the room's influence. If it's a ported sub, then the port is also miced and the relative levels of the two curves are corrected for woofer cone area and port area and then they are spliced together, taking the phase response into account of course. My point being, if it took 20 feet for bass waves to develop, not only would headphone listening be devoid of bass, but subwoofer designers could not rely on close-micing. I'm a subwoofer designer... one might even say, an "award winning" subwoofer designer (The Absolute Sound magazine, 2015 Product of the Year award).

I do not dispute that it SOUNDS LIKE the bass doesn't fully develop until you are 20 feet away from the cab, nor that the tone 20 feet away is a better representation of what the audience hears out in the venue. But the actual mechanism is a reduction in the relative balance of mid and high frequency energy at 20 feet away, NOT an increase in low frequency energy.

A large cab (like an 8x10) approximates a line source up close, so the change in SPL up close is less than point source theory would predict. A large horn-loaded cab can actually approximate a planar source up close, resulting in an even greater discrepancy with normally expected point source behavior. Both seem to support the theory that it takes distance for bass wavelengths to develop, but actually that is incorrect, and there are other mechanisms at play.

It's science, dude.

Hey, nice dissertation. Haven't heard that since my classes at Rutgers in the late '70s. I don't disagree that there are other things at play, including the human ear and its ability to hear and filter frequencies. However, low frequency waves have longer wavelengths. Otherwise, they would be high frequency....LOL. My point was not that the wave doesn't develop, however I may not have stated it properly. The SOUND can't properly develop two inches from your cab, so in the quest for good "tone" or "sound", you cannot stand a foot from the amp and assume what you are hearing is the actual sound coming out of the speaker. And that, you do support.

I have seen people throw away perfectly good equipment because their perspective was totally wrong. Like the infamous "my bass doesn't have enough mids" crap. Yes, there are some basses that just suck in the midrange, but often the complaint is made by saying that the "mids just aren't cutting through" at a gig. And, 99% of the time, its not the mids, its way, way, way too much bass. And, the other thing is also that, most regular gigs people don't have the bass through a monitor or IEMs, so they are stuck standing right in front of their rig, and of course you can't hear squat nor the good sound a foot away, especially when the geetard has his Marshall cranked.

However, I'll be happy to have one of your subwoofs. You can just send it now.....

 

[monsterthompson]

My point was not that the wave doesn't develop, however I may not have stated it properly. The SOUND can't properly develop two inches from your cab, so in the quest for good "tone" or "sound", you cannot stand a foot from the amp and assume what you are hearing is the actual sound coming out of the speaker. And that, you do support.

It is a longer wave, but you can hear it at any point in the wavelength, regardless of the "development."


One thing that can help with "boom" is cab placement, particularly getting it off the floor. I've recently been converted to using the Auralex GRAMMA Pad. They aren't cheap, but you can mimic the effect with other tools, if you are crafty (I've heard yoga mats can do the trick). Boost the cab up from the floor, using a material which won't transmit the vibrations of the cab. If you are getting coupling with your floor, it will make things boom in ways which can be tough to EQ out. In my apartment, I've got a raised foundation, hardwood floor. Adding the GRAMMA Pad was a game changer for me.

 

[Downunderwonder]

A 20ft chord, is that a B maj? Still nothing to do with wavelength development.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Hey, nice dissertation. Haven't heard that since my classes at Rutgers in the late '70s...

Hey I can't play a note but at least I can talk a good game!

The SOUND can't properly develop two inches from your cab, so in the quest for good "tone" or "sound", you cannot stand a foot from the amp and assume what you are hearing is the actual sound coming out of the speaker.

In my opinion it is possible to design a cab that gives you a pretty good representation of your "out in the house" tone even from up close, but it requires paying a fair amount of attention to the radiation patterns.

However, I'll be happy to have one of your subwoofs. You can just send it now.....

I only do my subs in sets of four, the idea being to use deliberately asymmetrical distribution so that each will interact with the room modes differently, resulting in a significant smoothing of the summed response throughout the listening room. Credit to Earl Geddes for the idea. But it's not the right approach for prosound.

 

[monsterthompson]

The OP mentioning adjusting 64 and 125 EQ points on the graphic keeps making me think there is a sympathetic resonance in the room. That's basically a note and the octave up. The real test would be playing in another room, and listening for the same result.

Perhaps adding sound absorbing and/or diffusing materials to the room could help. The first reflection point (the wall closest to the cab, since bass frequencies are omnidirectional this is likely right behind the cab) might benefit from some damping. I'm new to the game of padding the walls (for anything not involving a straight jacket), but my google education says that there might be some benefit looking into the room more than the amp and cab.

 

[CodyGBass]

If you put your tone/active bass and treible EQ knobs at the center position, think of each having a set number of adjustments below center and above center. One click below would be just below center position. One click above would be just above center.

I suggest those at 3 because it will engage them all, but barely. The pre-amps having tube and solid state slightly engaged will color your tone, but slightly. And, since puting the pre-amps up will increase your volume, best to keep them low but on. Its something I've found by experience with similar amps. Same with the compressor. A touch of compression to start will barely effect your overall tone, but the electronics in it will be engaged.

Yes, to me with an active bass, setting the bass to position 1 is about as flat as you can get. If you had a passive bass, you would set tone and volume and all pickups at 10 (all the way up) for maximum output from the instrument, and only eq with amp or preamp. Active basses are a bit trickier, because the pre itself is made with a "color" by the manufacturer. So you can't really turn it all the way up without sounding like crap. So cutting the bass one and boosting the treb one usually gives a pretty even and wide output for the bass.

I hope that helps. Others may disagree, but my 35 years at this, plus my degree in engineering, have led me to have to teach this to tons of new and other players over and over.

Let me know how your sound is.

tom

Ok look I'm really confused with where you're telling me to set the controls on the Bass itself. I don't have a bass and treble knob on the bass itself I just have a tone, PU volumes and bass boost. I get the one click above and below centre thing but I don't get which controls your talking about. So could you please tell me where you want me to set the:
Tone
Neck PU
Bridge PU
Phat II Bass Boost
Btw just setting my Neck PU and Tone to 50%, Bass Boost at 0% and Bridge PU to 100% it sounds way too boomy even if I try adjusting on the Bass. Also turning the volume up seems to increase the boomy sound significantly. Even with the volume set on 1 its too boomy.
Thanks

 

[CodyGBass]

For those who think the room is a factor Ill give you some information on the room. My house is off the ground with a concrete floor that goes down 56cm. My room has the bass amp in the upper left hand corner with a bookshelf next to it to the left, the window and brick wall are behind it. in front of the amp is my bed and bedside table. Beside the brick wall behind the amp the other three walls are made of plaster.
Thanks for your help.

 

[Mushroo]

Your amp is in a corner behind a bed? Try putting it in the middle of the room on a chair, stool, or crate. Then put it away back in the corner when you are done practicing.

 

[BadExample]

The room is the final and, if all else is good, perhaps the most impacting effect on sound before it shakes your eardrums and other body parts.

 

[TRichardsbass]

Ok look I'm really confused with where you're telling me to set the controls on the Bass itself. I don't have a bass and treble knob on the bass itself I just have a tone, PU volumes and bass boost. I get the one click above and below centre thing but I don't get which controls your talking about. So could you please tell me where you want me to set the:
Tone
Neck PU
Bridge PU
Phat II Bass Boost
Btw just setting my Neck PU and Tone to 50%, Bass Boost at 0% and Bridge PU to 100% it sounds way too boomy even if I try adjusting on the Bass. Also turning the volume up seems to increase the boomy sound significantly. Even with the volume set on 1 its too boomy.
Thanks

Okay, I"m not perfectly familiar with your bass, but based on what you just said, both pickups on full. Tone to its most trebly setting,leave the bass boost off. That should be the most treble setting you can get.

If I am understanding your bass better, the tone is actually a two band eq where the bass is boosted when you lower the tone control, and treble is boosted when you raise the control. So put the tone full "on" or all treble.

Lower your amp gain and then take the amp volume up to an acceptable level. Then start playing with the amp.

Hope that helps.