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Bass tone - I get very confused

P

Pastafarian

Mar 4, 2009
26
0
#1
This could go in any one of several forums, but it's here for now - can move it if need be.

From what I've gleaned over the short time I've played the bass, there are quite a few things that affect how a bass sounds (in terms of both its tone, and how 'good' it sounds):

- the wood the bass is made of (and the body shape?)
- the strings (type and age)
- the pick-ups
- bass knob settings
- EQ + other amp settings
- the amp itself + cabinets
- effects, but let's leave those for now
- and, of course, how you play it.

The problem is that this has left me pretty confused.

When I was a complete beginner, I found myself wondering that, surely, with all the effects and settings out there, you could make any bass sound however you want (incl. like other basses), which I now know is rubbish. But I still can't quite get my head round how you can identify how each of those makes a distinct difference to the tone. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was a thread I saw by a guy wanting the specific Acoustic 360 amp JPJ used in order to replicate his exact sound - couldn't quite believe you can't get very very very close with widely available amps.

Two things, then:
1 - is there any way I can get a better idea of how each of the things above affects the sound? Even if I tried out loads of basses, pickups, strings, amps, etc, there are still so many variables and interactions.

2 - in terms of quality, would it really help me to, for example, upgrade to much better pick-ups, when the material my bass is made of is still low quality (I play an Ibanez GSR 190)?

Thanks in advance.
 
#2
Hi Pastafarian.

Here's something I scribbled for another bassist a while back re getting a good bass tone:

A lot of players set up their bass and amp EQ as follows:

1) Make sure the bass is properly set up so that it:

- plays well (neck relief and string height at its bridge & nut)

- plays in tune on every note (intonation adjustment at the bass' bridge)

- and so that its pickups are adjusted parallel with the pick-guard (this helps insure that all the strings will be amplified to the same volume) and close enough to the strings for a good string capture/strong electrical output, yet far enough away to avoid excess magnet damping of the string's vibrations (leading to a loss of sustain and weird out-of-tune harmonics).

Having one's bass professionally set up is a shortcut to achieving the above.

2) Set the instrument's EQ flat (if it's an active bass, if it's a passive bass turn its tone control up full).

3) Set the amp's EQ flat (turn off any compressors & limiters and any mid-scoop or treble/bass-boost buttons which may be labeled something like 'contour')

4) *With the bass' on-board volume turned up full (passive bass), and with the amplifier's MASTER volume turned up a tiny amount, plug into the regular input on the amp and adjust the amp's GAIN control so that it feeds the amp a good strong signal from the bass without distorting, even when the bass' strings are plucked vigorously.

*Please note: For active basses, if the instrument's on-board pre-amp is clipping/distorting the amplifier's input stage, then modify the the plug in procedure by plugging into the amp's input marked 'pad', or 'padded', or - 6 dB etc and realize that the on-board pre-amps on some active basses are so powerful that they'll overload even the padded input on some amps. If this occurs, one will have to turn the instrument's volume knob down a little to avoid clipping/distorting the amplifier's pre-amp stage.

4) Turn up the rig loud enough to blend with the drummer, and then tweak the amp's EQ slightly to compensate for adverse room acoustics and/or competition from other instruments.

5) If one's band is playing so LOUD that one's bass amp is close to clipping/distorting, then turn on any clipping limiter the rig may have which is designed to limit the pre-amp signal being fed to the power amp in order to prevent often speaker-killing power amp clipping.

6) If one's band is so LOUD that after :bassist: one's ears are ringing :eek:, then turn down or get hearing protection! Seriously!

If the above steps are followed then one will enjoy a bass and amp combination which sounds & feels satisfyingly full, punchy, tony, and largely balanced (no bass is perfect) throughout its entire register.

It will also sit well in the mix--a mix which will sound good for years, and years, and years 'cause you'll still have your ears! :D
 
#4
The thing about "tone", Pastafarian (nice handle, BTW ;)), is that it's 80% real and 20% imaginary anyway, IMHO :p!

As far as getting "any sound out of any bass by adjusting amp/equaliser settings" is concerned, remember that basses are like people, in that they have "a voice".

Some basses have a very disinctive voice but quite a limited range (think; 70s Jazz/Louis Armstrong, any Warwick/Cyndi Lauper :D), whereas others may have a much broader range of voices, resulting in a less one-dimensional tone (think; Alembic/Boyz II Men, SX with Audere preamp/New Kids on the Block :p etc.).

So, you can alter the bass's tone to a greater or lesser extent with EQ, but it's generally not common to be able to change the "voice" of the bass to sound exactly like a completely different model (although there are exceptions).

Hope that helped, but even if it didn't, I had fun writing it :D!
 
#5
Here's how I see it. Start with a bass that make a particular sound, a Jazz for example- Marcus Miller springs readily to mind. Or a P bass- James Jamerson. Now, these are two really extreme examples of what each bass can do, but you can use it as a reference. What the bass is made of has much less effect on the sound than the pickup type and placement do. This is the primary reason why P's and J's sound the way they sound in spite of the fact that that you can get one of each made from the same woods, and they'll sound very different.
Amps? Certain ones will mostly preserve the original sound of the bass, such as SWR. Others will greatly color the sound to good effect, such as SVT. Speakers? It's generally agreed that smaller ones(8"-10") sound brighter while larger ones(12"18")sound fatter, or less bright. Depends on what you want, but start at the beginning- the bass and your hands. You find a bass you like, then the amp/speakers, IMO. It can be a long, even endless journey.
 
#6
To answer one of your questions, yes, changing the pups on your Ibby would radically alter the sound, 99% chance of improvement. Although the GSR may be made of cheaper woods, the pickup swap would be a huge upgrade and a radical change in tone and character; the beauty of it is that those same pickups can be transplanted to a better bass later on, since they're a standard type.

Pickup swaps are easy, and if you picked up another bass with the same pickup style after upgrading your existing pickups, you'll have three different sets to expiriment with; I believe you could learn quite a bit about what goes in to making a bass sound like it does that way.

Learning about tone doesn't stop, but if you don't jump in and start doing something, whether changing pups, strings, or just EQ settings, you won't learn. Raise and lower your action. Roll off your tone knob and crank your amp's treble knob to hear the difference between the two. Just jump in and use your ears!

Now that I'm thinking about it, start trying to recreate specific bass tones you like; don't worry that your GSR doesn't sound like (insert bass hero here)'s bass, just try to get as close as you can with just hands, eq, and your bass' controls. IIRC, I learned a lot by trying to cop Geddy's tone with a P-bass knockoff and a Peavey amp when I was much younger.
 
#7
Thanks all. Especially like Fender32's point about voice and tone - looks like I was lumping together too many things into the 'tone' bracket. Think I just need to try more basses, amps, pick-ups, etc - esp the PUs, by the look of things.

So as a sort of follow-up to Q2 in my OP - I've got P/J pick-ups on by Ibby starter bass, and I would guess they're pretty low quality. Should these be the first thing I upgrade? More than anything, really curious how different my bass would sound if I replaced each of them - trip to the shop armed with my wallet might be coming up...

Cheers

____________

Posted at the same time as WalterBush - that was v. helpful (and answered my pick-up question at the same time I was writing it) - thanks! I do play around with EQ/knob settings a fair bit, but I'm always left wondering how much of what I can hear is the settings, how much my playing, how much the materials, etc - but yeah, just need to try as much as possible. Cheers again.
 
#8
Edit: just read your poste above this one. I would first change the strings if you haven't done it yet (I have the same bass and putting some ernie ball slinky roundwounds on it made all the difference but other rounds will prob. do fine as well). After some new strings check if it is setup correctly (it doesn't have to be perfect but it shouldn't be a mess). Then just experiment with the two pickups (I now solo the P or add 50% J) and your playing (improving tone starts with improving your technique). If you still don't like what you have by then you could replace pups but low quality pickups doesn't mean a bad tone, just a different tone.

What makes the sound come out of the bass is the vibration of the string being picked up by the pickup. A pickup is designed to give a faithfull reproduction of that vibration so it naturally has less contribution to the tone (some are louder than others and some pick up certain frequencys better but it is less important than the string which is vibrating).

The reason woods contribute to the voice of a solid body instrument is because woods have their own vibration which impacts the vibration of the strings and woods give mass and stiffness to the instrument which also impacts the vibration of the strings and can give more punch/sustain. In my experience the wood used on the fretboard has the greatest impact on the voice of the instrument.

Other factors on the voice of the instrument are the placement of the pickup and what the preamp does to the signal which can really impact the voice as well (just try the fender mark hoppes sig which doesn't have a tone knob and compare it to a mim P).

The problem is that you can barely predict how a difference in one of these things is going to change the tone other than that it will be different. This is because everything also interacts with each other and sound is far from factive. There are some general statements that you can make like: softer woods create a warmer tone with less attack and placing a pickup near the bridge will give a harsher tone with more attack and near the neck will give a warmer tone (just try different pickups on a strat to get a feeling for this).

In the end just try different basses and pick the one you like to play and sounds nice. You can't decide on a tone by talking about it on forums because sound is largely fictive and with such small differences it depends more on the listener than the source.

If you find yourself not liking the bass you choose you can always start fiddeling with your eq and change your strings. Furthermore I found that after a while you start appreciating the sound of your instruments more and more (it happened with my jumpstart ibby GSR 190 which I now love to death after changing the strings).

So just listen and try a whole bunch of basses and pick the one you love (looks are also very very important esp. if you are younger).
 
#11
To the OP.

I could write down an essay of my experiences with tone, as well as any bassist here can that has been playing for a substantial amount of time.

You just started, that quest for your ideal tone can go on for years. (And maybe never stop.)

I myself have tailored (am tailoring) everything in my setup, (bass, strings, pickup, effect pedals, amps, cab) to suit my needs.

My advice, take in all the information from your experiences and what you read here step by step.
Be very careful with what you change in your gear.
In a few years you can shape a better idea of what gear you need.

my 2 cents :)
 
#12
C'thulhu said:
To the OP.

I could write down an essay of my experiences with tone, as well as any bassist here can that has been playing for a substantial amount of time.

You just started, that quest for your ideal tone can go on for years. (And maybe never stop.)

I myself have tailored (am tailoring) everything in my setup, (bass, strings, pickup, effect pedals, amps, cab) to suit my needs.

My advice, take in all the information from your experiences and what you read here step by step.
Be very careful with what you change in your gear.
In a few years you can shape a better idea of what gear you need.

my 2 cents :)
Click to expand...

+1

Oh yeah and another piece of advice ... only change one thing at a time ;).

I've lost count of the times that I've modded a pickup and preamp, or a bridge and a set of tuners together on the same day and then gone and thrown on a new set of strings from a brand that I've never tried before :D. It's easy to get lost and not know what impact certain components are having on the sound, if you let things get too complicated. It usually costs more in the long run too ;).
 
#15
The No. 1 thing that influences tone is you. Your playing style, the way you strike the strings, the finesse (of lack thereof) you use when you fret notes...

Does the gear make a difference? Of course it does. But if you can't get a decent tone out of an average instrument with a good set-up (through a decent amp), all the high end gear in the world won't make you sound good.
 

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