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basses for newbies (SX batch build thread)
- Thread starter chunger
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I suggest not losing sight of the original intention here, which I though was providing a decent bass at an inexpensive price. That's what the Rondo basses are. The way I see it, taking care of all of the issues to make them better (perfect), adding high priced pups and electronics, plus all of the other things being done to these basses pushes the price up there into a market already saturated with Fender clones. Lakland, Lull, Sadowsky and a host of others. Nothing against what you are doing, I commend your efforts. Just don't become...just another Fender clone. By the way I have a SX "P" bass shorty and my custom built dream bass which is as high end as you can get. I like my SX just as it came out of the box. I replaced the pup with another low cost pup just for the hell of it and will probably shield it, change the pots and that's about it. A $100 bass plus less than $50 in additions. Makes sense to me.
IIRC the intention was improving on the SX models to make a true "playable" bass for cheap i.e. Fender Quality at Squier price. If his intention was as you said why was his first projects improving the SXes
I liked my SX too after changing the cap and tone pot, but it is hit or miss with SX Ive seen plenty of crap ones come out, luckily rondo will take returns on the crap ones but it is still time consuming and you still arent guaranteed a great player. ohh and $50 is additions wont give you a playable neck which is a common problem with most sub $500 bass. If I wasnt building my own bass to get the exact tone I wanted out of it I would buy one of chungers without a doubt, I just aint a fan of the replacement pickups being used.For the Modified series, maximum value for the money spent is my intent. And, I know it's a hard sell to a newbie to step up to the $400-$600 range, but I want to get an instrument out there that can go for the long haul. So that you're not gassing for the Lakland or the Sadowsky based on playability or tone. There it is. . . a truly professional instrument right off the bat so that the player can focus on playing. If Nordstrand was not a quantum leap better than the stock SX or something like the EMG or GFS pickups, I would not be using them. On the other hand, things like the Dunlop strings which are premium quality and low cost are things I also love to use because it continuously saves money for the player. It is sometimes a hard sell to a student which is why I'm starting off selling through teachers who have a vested interest in the player's development. Over the long run, buying the right tool for the job in the beginning is way cheaper than buying several sub-par instruments that cannot go the distance without the exact same mods I'm doing.
Another differentiating factor that factories do no take into account is the wide variation between identical model instruments. Even premium semi-production instruments like the Lakland Skyline series and G&L tribute are not play tested. Even though subjective, they do not make an attempt at saying this instrument is better than that one, which is better than the other one. To the player who cares, if I end up pulling this off, you will know where each instrument sits roughly in the pecking order. . . and for the higher grade instruments, you will be able to hear the actual instrument prior to purchase. You can also directly compare to the other instruments available in stock. That is valuable to me. Factories in their marketing want you to believe that the entire line is the same. This is not the case, and to remain completely honest about what you are selling, you can either meticulously spec your materials and production process to raise the average level of your instruments (premium builders who probably throw out a lot more parts), or sort and grade the instrument which nobody else seems to do on production instruments. What they assume is nobody is going to have access to 10 samples of one specific model to A/B directly in the store and few people are going to drive all over and/or wait for the great on to show up. I'd rather give this information to the potential buyer and let them decide what's important to them.
That being said, I cannot fully build out in a reasonable time-frame the entire minimum batch order, so the happy coincidence is it is to my advantage to only earmark ~1/3 of the batch for full modification stateside. The rest, I can sell as-is from the factory. Playability on the sample instrument right out of the box was extremely acceptable, so I have no problems selling the "Standard" series instruments right out of the box to people who are not convinced all mods are necessary, want to build it out themselves, or want to get it modified at a later date. It's got the same bones as the modded ones, just no plek, or cool electronics, or premium pickups. The factory bass sounds pretty darn good. I'm actually really really happy about it, and we will probably be within the same price range as an Affinity at a better build quality in my opinion from playing all the squiers I can get my hands on at Guitar Center a few weeks back.
I have a feeling most folks are still after the "cheap" instrument. My goal was to build the original concept instrument and hold it at $350 or under, but that is not possible at this time for me. . . to build to my standard that is in terms of tone and playability. So it is what it is. I did ask Jasaman flat out if I were to hand him #4 (premium grade) without any other indicators as to what it is, how much he would personally pay to buy that instrument, he said $1700 without hesitation. When I look around the current market, I do not see any ~ sub $500 instruments that can remotely touch that without adding another $200 in repairs/mods. I'm super excited to hear the first premium grade spec instrument that comes down the pipeline.
Another differentiating factor that factories do no take into account is the wide variation between identical model instruments. Even premium semi-production instruments like the Lakland Skyline series and G&L tribute are not play tested. Even though subjective, they do not make an attempt at saying this instrument is better than that one, which is better than the other one. To the player who cares, if I end up pulling this off, you will know where each instrument sits roughly in the pecking order. . . and for the higher grade instruments, you will be able to hear the actual instrument prior to purchase. You can also directly compare to the other instruments available in stock. That is valuable to me. Factories in their marketing want you to believe that the entire line is the same. This is not the case, and to remain completely honest about what you are selling, you can either meticulously spec your materials and production process to raise the average level of your instruments (premium builders who probably throw out a lot more parts), or sort and grade the instrument which nobody else seems to do on production instruments. What they assume is nobody is going to have access to 10 samples of one specific model to A/B directly in the store and few people are going to drive all over and/or wait for the great on to show up. I'd rather give this information to the potential buyer and let them decide what's important to them.
That being said, I cannot fully build out in a reasonable time-frame the entire minimum batch order, so the happy coincidence is it is to my advantage to only earmark ~1/3 of the batch for full modification stateside. The rest, I can sell as-is from the factory. Playability on the sample instrument right out of the box was extremely acceptable, so I have no problems selling the "Standard" series instruments right out of the box to people who are not convinced all mods are necessary, want to build it out themselves, or want to get it modified at a later date. It's got the same bones as the modded ones, just no plek, or cool electronics, or premium pickups. The factory bass sounds pretty darn good. I'm actually really really happy about it, and we will probably be within the same price range as an Affinity at a better build quality in my opinion from playing all the squiers I can get my hands on at Guitar Center a few weeks back.
I have a feeling most folks are still after the "cheap" instrument. My goal was to build the original concept instrument and hold it at $350 or under, but that is not possible at this time for me. . . to build to my standard that is in terms of tone and playability. So it is what it is. I did ask Jasaman flat out if I were to hand him #4 (premium grade) without any other indicators as to what it is, how much he would personally pay to buy that instrument, he said $1700 without hesitation. When I look around the current market, I do not see any ~ sub $500 instruments that can remotely touch that without adding another $200 in repairs/mods. I'm super excited to hear the first premium grade spec instrument that comes down the pipeline.
If I could get a shorty P-Bass with modest mods - shielding the cavity, better pots, blocked neck, maybe a better pickup - for $500, I wouldn't hesitate.
Jerry
Jerry
The logo's been with me for a long, long time:
Just the "chung" character in my name penned by my grandmother who was an accomplished calligrapher. We are, after all building "cheap Chinese basses" here. If it gives the workers at the factory another point of pride to up the quality a few notches, I'm all for it.
Character is "middle" same character as China "middle country".. . . and I like my midrange snarley and agressive
[/QUOTE]well I probably expressed myself wrong, the chung logo by itself on a blank headstock is cool, especially in pearloid. Together with a different script and logo, I dunno
is IMO complete dynamite, not just for the graphic look (which I love) but for the conceptual leap it represents - the "coming of age" of "cheap Chinese basses" as completely valid instruments in their own right, no attempt to apologize for that origin by trying to camouflage it behind faked-up Western-style names.
Definite thumbs up!
Definite thumbs up!
+1 for the Chinese character. I think the days of the stigma towards Chinese-made goods are numbered.
Sometimes, you just need a drill press. . . several of the basses I have left in the queue began life as fretless instruments, so I needed to plug and re-set necks that were purchased separately. . . I ran out of maple plugs and needed to make a few more to get through the batch. I also needed to drill neck holes on the yellow (vintage white) jazz bass body I have paired with the light block maple neck.
Anyways, Jeff ( username: JLS ) responded to my cry for help on forum and let me use his shop. As it turns out, he does all manner of instrument repairs and has a well equipped shop. He ended up running the press because I didn't want to take up more time than necessary, and since he knows his machines better than I do, it was simply faster. We got to talk a bit of shop, and he's got all kinds of jigs, special tools, and procedures for doing things (the right way that is
). Don't know what I'm doing here, but I certainly like to push the limits of hand drilling Anyways, he bailed me out big time, and I figured it was worth a mention if you're in the Bay Area and need something fixed. He does acoustic and electric guitars and basses and is equipped to do all that crazy steamy stuff they do on acoustics when the necks get really wonky as well as under-saddle piezo installs as well as anything else you might happen to need or break.
Well, back to the hand-drill arena. . . this is #14. It's a bit different than the rest because all of the "wood" is donated by Jo6pak. But, being donated, I didn't have all the parts and the neck and body did not belong to the same instrument in their previous lives.
I've been using Gorilla Glue to plug necks lately, and there are several reasons. . . all or none of which may be valid. Please consult a real repair professional before applying these techniques. I found titebond is more viscous than Gorilla Glue and even if you carve little fluid escape channels along the sides of the plugs, they often hydralock when you're trying to pound them in. . . really exciting when that happens especially when the plug starts splitting apart as you attempt to pound it in. I found myself shaving the plugs a bit more undersized than I like when using titebond to be sure they would seat all the way. With Gorilla glue, I've been able to keep the plugs tighter, not cut fluid escape channels, and still have the plugs seat without issue. . . plus, I'm never going to take these plugs out, so a super-permanent solution isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Plugs cleaned up with a dremel. . .
Since this thing didn't have any pickups, I had to build out all the guts prior to plek. . . because I need to be able to plug in and tune the instrument. .. so, the first step is copper shielding.
Checking neck alignment. . . this neck is probably the only SX I've seen so far with a truly tight neck pocket.
And, 3/16" holes are drilled into the neck with the body clamped in place.
I then enlarge the holes per the "normal" procedure and install threaded inserts and a shim. . . I had no idea if this one needed a shim or not, but less than 1 out of every 10 SX's can go to low action without a shim, so I decided to shim blindly.
And. . . p-basses are so much easier than push/pull push/pull push/pull jazz basses.
The bass didn't have a nut, so I had to do another one of the graphtech numbers on this one. No more glue! I'm all done with glue in the nut slots after that last nightmare and choose not to subject any future repair tech to the same nonsense. I just fit 'em tight now.
And, here we are, ready for PLEK. . . and, pretty much finished after the plek which will be nice.
Meet #14. . .
Oh, I have to remember to order up some pick guard screws. . . I'm about 10 short on this one, but luckly I had 3 lying around. . . enough to secure the electronics cavity.
Anyways, Jeff ( username: JLS ) responded to my cry for help on forum and let me use his shop. As it turns out, he does all manner of instrument repairs and has a well equipped shop. He ended up running the press because I didn't want to take up more time than necessary, and since he knows his machines better than I do, it was simply faster. We got to talk a bit of shop, and he's got all kinds of jigs, special tools, and procedures for doing things (the right way that is
). Don't know what I'm doing here, but I certainly like to push the limits of hand drilling Anyways, he bailed me out big time, and I figured it was worth a mention if you're in the Bay Area and need something fixed. He does acoustic and electric guitars and basses and is equipped to do all that crazy steamy stuff they do on acoustics when the necks get really wonky as well as under-saddle piezo installs as well as anything else you might happen to need or break.Well, back to the hand-drill arena. . . this is #14. It's a bit different than the rest because all of the "wood" is donated by Jo6pak. But, being donated, I didn't have all the parts and the neck and body did not belong to the same instrument in their previous lives.
I've been using Gorilla Glue to plug necks lately, and there are several reasons. . . all or none of which may be valid. Please consult a real repair professional before applying these techniques
. I found titebond is more viscous than Gorilla Glue and even if you carve little fluid escape channels along the sides of the plugs, they often hydralock when you're trying to pound them in. . . really exciting when that happens especially when the plug starts splitting apart as you attempt to pound it in. I found myself shaving the plugs a bit more undersized than I like when using titebond to be sure they would seat all the way. With Gorilla glue, I've been able to keep the plugs tighter, not cut fluid escape channels, and still have the plugs seat without issue. . . plus, I'm never going to take these plugs out, so a super-permanent solution isn't necessarily a bad thing.Plugs cleaned up with a dremel. . .
Since this thing didn't have any pickups, I had to build out all the guts prior to plek. . . because I need to be able to plug in and tune the instrument. .. so, the first step is copper shielding.
Checking neck alignment. . . this neck is probably the only SX I've seen so far with a truly tight neck pocket.
And, 3/16" holes are drilled into the neck with the body clamped in place.
I then enlarge the holes per the "normal" procedure and install threaded inserts and a shim. . . I had no idea if this one needed a shim or not, but less than 1 out of every 10 SX's can go to low action without a shim, so I decided to shim blindly.
And. . . p-basses are so much easier than push/pull push/pull push/pull jazz basses.
The bass didn't have a nut, so I had to do another one of the graphtech numbers on this one. No more glue! I'm all done with glue in the nut slots after that last nightmare and choose not to subject any future repair tech to the same nonsense. I just fit 'em tight now.
And, here we are, ready for PLEK. . . and, pretty much finished after the plek which will be nice.
Meet #14. . .
Oh, I have to remember to order up some pick guard screws. . . I'm about 10 short on this one, but luckly I had 3 lying around. . . enough to secure the electronics cavity.
Have you tried using a c-clamp for installing the dowels rather than hammering them in?
I never have but it works "on paper"
I never have but it works "on paper"
Yup. . . I hammered in the 1st one on this neck, and then used a C-clamp on the rest. Works pretty smoothly.
I'm going to be traveling to the East coast for ~2 weeks, so I'm shutting down the operation again. But, the "ready" pile is just about even now with the other pile, so I'm optimistic I will be able to PLEK all of the P's and P/J's shortly after getting back.
If you are one of the folks who contacted me regarding SX work, please send your basses to me now. I will not be PLEK'ing any more SX's after this batch, so this is it!
I'm going to be traveling to the East coast for ~2 weeks, so I'm shutting down the operation again. But, the "ready" pile is just about even now with the other pile, so I'm optimistic I will be able to PLEK all of the P's and P/J's shortly after getting back.
If you are one of the folks who contacted me regarding SX work, please send your basses to me now. I will not be PLEK'ing any more SX's after this batch, so this is it!
Finally read my way through this thread from the beginning (and Subbed). What a crazy evolution of events! I dig what your doing and really impressed just how much this has blown up. From slight mods on a cheap bass, to getting a custom line manufactured...Kind of nut's really but I admire the dedication.
As far as your Headstock goes, I think the shape could use a little work. You started out trying to create something that could be cut, from an existing design. But now that your in "anything you can dream up territory", why not expand that a little? I think it's a little lean IMO and could use some fattening up. It looks like the strings are gonna "fall off the edge" or something
Feels to crowded IMO. But hey to each is own. I dig the Logo placement of of 3A, but with more room on the head stock I think it would stand out better.
You have inspired to try some of these setup adjustments on my own, as they look fairly achievable on a very low budget. I normally would just spring for a tech and take my chances, but I think I can pull this off and am willing to give it a shot.(plus I'm pretty broke right now) Unfortunately I'll have to wait a bit as I've only got my one bass now and I need it for gigging, so if I screw something up, I don't have another easily accessible option o.0
Anyway, just wanted to add my words of encouragement and thanks for the inspiration, knowledge and entertainment!
As far as your Headstock goes, I think the shape could use a little work. You started out trying to create something that could be cut, from an existing design. But now that your in "anything you can dream up territory", why not expand that a little? I think it's a little lean IMO and could use some fattening up. It looks like the strings are gonna "fall off the edge" or something
Feels to crowded IMO. But hey to each is own. I dig the Logo placement of of 3A, but with more room on the head stock I think it would stand out better. You have inspired to try some of these setup adjustments on my own, as they look fairly achievable on a very low budget. I normally would just spring for a tech and take my chances, but I think I can pull this off and am willing to give it a shot.(plus I'm pretty broke right now) Unfortunately I'll have to wait a bit as I've only got my one bass now and I need it for gigging, so if I screw something up, I don't have another easily accessible option o.0
Anyway, just wanted to add my words of encouragement and thanks for the inspiration, knowledge and entertainment!
Listened to the Nordstrand P bass pickup clips again, and the tone is fantastic, really what I expect from a P pickup.
I know I'm responding to a relatively old post here, but if your church is using lighting dimmers, there's TONS of EMF flying around.
- Aug 5, 2005
- 7,243
- 92
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: J.C. Basses
Finally read my way through this thread from the beginning (and Subbed). What a crazy evolution of events! I dig what your doing and really impressed just how much this has blown up. From slight mods on a cheap bass, to getting a custom line manufactured...Kind of nut's really but I admire the dedication.
As far as your Headstock goes, I think the shape could use a little work. You started out trying to create something that could be cut, from an existing design. But now that your in "anything you can dream up territory", why not expand that a little? I think it's a little lean IMO and could use some fattening up. It looks like the strings are gonna "fall off the edge" or something
I completely disagree. Why add to unnecessary neck-dive by making the headstock larger? If anything, I'd think a 3+1 or 2+2 would be preferable.
I hate 3+1. 2+2 is OK, but on a Fender style bass, I'd rather see a Fender style headstock.
Hah! It's all there! Well, I'm glad I totally glossed over that part of the post before I did my listening test!
Well, good, that's promising. That means maybe I'll give the Model J's another look, which means maybe I will get a humcanceling pickup I like. Maybe I should listen to the soundclips again on monitors I trust
Thanks to both you and Chunger for the recordings. Really, really helpful.
You might want to check out Dimarzio's UltraJazz and Area J pups, too. I haven't tried 'em myself, but Dimarzio will swap stuff out if you're not satisfied with it. I believe the UJs are probably more modern and the Area Js appear to be as vintage as possible.
All I know is that in Guitard Land, the Area 58s, 61s, and 67s are the rage. Dimarzio has, for many people, created the Holy Grail of single coils with no hum for a Strat. So you may want to try the Dimarzio Js besides just the Model J. Just sayin'.
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