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Bassics of Melodic Minor

B

basskidd

Guest
Jul 25, 2011
168
15
Chicago
rudybless.virb.com
#1
(Pun intended...) :hiding:

I'm looking for some help with understanding where and how to use the melodic minor scale in a Jazz setting.
As far as I can figure out (and please feel free to correct me on this) the root of the Melodic Minor is the b3 of a half diminished (IIm7b5) chord (so on a Dm7b5 the root of the MM would be F).
When it comes to an altered dominant 7th chord (V7alt), it would start on the b9 (if the chord were a G7alt the root of the MM would be Ab).
Again, please stop me because I'm not 100% sure this is all theoretically correct.
The reason I ask is because, when I practice with this, it doesn't sound... right. So, either I've gotten my theory all jumbled up, or I'm not playing it right...

Let's assume I have the theory right (and even if I don't). What's a good way to practice the scale over quick II V I progressions in a minor key?

Thanks
 
#2
basskidd said:
(Pun intended...) :hiding:

I'm looking for some help with understanding where and how to use the melodic minor scale in a Jazz setting.
As far as I can figure out (and please feel free to correct me on this) the root of the Melodic Minor is the b3 of a half diminished (IIm7b5) chord (so on a Dm7b5 the root of the MM would be F).
When it comes to an altered dominant 7th chord (V7alt), it would start on the b9 (if the chord were a G7alt the root of the MM would be Ab).
Again, please stop me because I'm not 100% sure this is all theoretically correct.
The reason I ask is because, when I practice with this, it doesn't sound... right. So, either I've gotten my theory all jumbled up, or I'm not playing it right...

Let's assume I have the theory right (and even if I don't). What's a good way to practice the scale over quick II V I progressions in a minor key?

Thanks
Click to expand...
The melodic minor scale is the major scale with a flatted 3rd, i.e. R-2-b3-4-5-6-7.
A major scale is A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G# and the melodic minor A scale is A, B, C, D, E, F#, G# i.e. the major scale with a flatted 3rd.

Code: 
A melodic minor 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Note 	Chord 		      Spelling		Chord Name	Function
A	A-C-E-G#		1-b3-5-7	Am(Maj7) 	i min Maj7          (tonic)
B	B-D-F#-A		1-b3-5-b7	B min7		ii min7
C	C--EG#-B		1-3-#5-7	Cmaj7#5		III maj 7 aug
D	D-F#-A-C		1-3-5-b7        D 7		IV dom7       (subdominant)
E	E-G#-B-D		1-3-5-b7	E7		V dom7		(dominant)
F#	F#-A-C-E		1-b3-b5-b7	F#m7b5		vi m7b5
G#	G#-B-D-F#	        1-b3-b5-b7	G#m7b5		vii m7b5 or vii ½ dim
Check this out here http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/a-melodic-minor-chords.html

How to practice it over a ii-v-i (minor key)? Beyond running R-2-b3-4-5-6-7 I would have no idea, I do not think I have ever used the melodic minor scale - except in "theory" exercises, i.e. in a song, can not remember ever having the need to use it.

{edit} Found this:
You can use the Melodic Minor scale over chords where you would play another minor scale or pentatonic scale. You can play melodic minor over minor chords, m6 chords, and m/maj7 chords. But, since the melodic minor scale is so close to the major scale, you could play it in the place of major scale, major pentatonic, Lydian mode and Mixolydian modes. The melodic minor scale does not sound perfect over everything because of its flat third (b3) and natural 7 (7). If the seventh was lowered, it would be Dorian Mode. See lesson on modes: (insert link to mode lesson when on site). Melodic minor is used to solo in style such as jazz and funk. The Melodic minor scale is especially good for Jazz styles because it is so close to Dorian Mode (Dorian is as important to Jazz as is the pentatonic is to Rock). It is good for funk because of its Major scale feel, and minor scale sound.
Click to expand...
 
#3
If you want to apply melodic minor to a II-V-I minor, you can use
...the 6th mode of MM (locrian natural 2) over the IIm7b5
...the 7th mode of MM (superlocrian or altered) over the V7
...the regular MM on the Im.

In C minor that is:
Dm7b5 -> D locrian natural 2 (F melodic minor)
G7 -> G altered/superlocrian (Ab melodic minor)
Cm -> C melodic minor
 
#4
i haven't played jazz for 15 years sinse i studied it in university ....but if memory serves me ....one big use for melodic minor in jazz is on a V chord for an altered sound ....but it would be the 4th mode of the melodic you would use ....if you have a G7 chord you use the the notes from the D melodic minor to achieve the lydian dominant sound ....G A B C# D E F - this one gives you a raised 4th

but then again if you use the 5th mode of the C melodic minor over a G7 you get G A B C D Eb F - this one gives you a b 6th

if you have a minor ii V i - you can use the melodic minor from the im throughout.

it's important to realize that although jazz can be a very studious art form ...we can look at scales till the cows come home ....

the great jazz players come up with musical licks and phrases just as a blues or rock player. Stevie Ray had a big bag of stuff that worked ....it came from the blues scale but it's so much more than what blues scale where ....good jazz is the same ...

you wanna think of 2 5 1 stuff in terms of cool musical licks where you might pick a funky alteration on the 5 chord - like work on a #4 sound on the 5 chord ...work a #4 into a cool sounding phrase ....so you see it's beyond "what scale?" it's about a great sounding phrase with timing and ryhthm.
 
#5
basskidd said:
(Pun intended...) :hiding:


When it comes to an altered dominant 7th chord (V7alt), it would start on the b9 (if the chord were a G7alt the root of the MM would be Ab).

Thanks
Click to expand...


damn right that works for a highly altered vibe! i totally forgot about that! you got it!

so you get a G Ab A# B C# D# F = R b9 #9 3 #4 #5 b7 that's alot of bad notes for an inside ear LOL!

like i say ....my schooling is lightyears away now ....i'm foggy ....i don't think i err in my previous post but this is how you get the big alterations from the melodic.....

another great way to achieve a highly altered sound is to play a half/whole diminished scale right off the root of the V chord ....you get all the altered tones possible ...all the bad notes LOL.
 
#6
Let the melody and the chords come first. It seems like unnecessary complication to think of the altered scale as some form /mode of melodic minor. Back in the day , jazzers rarely thought "how do I use this scale/mode?" but rather "what notes work over the chord(s)?" Based on the words of people were there at then time (like Carol Kaye et al) I believe The altered scale , and its identification as a mode of the melodic minor,actually was a later academic deconstruction of what was really going on: Players experimenting with throwing different triads on top of V7(alt) or ii-V7(alt) and seeing how they sounded. So you may be better served identifying those triads that the altered scale implies over a V7
 
#8
sammyp said:
if you have a G7 chord you use the the notes from the D melodic minor
Click to expand...
Ok but the E and A of D melodic minor turn out to be the major 2nd and major 6th in G7. That will sound like a Dominant going to a IMaj. If that's the sound you're looking for, it's fine.

First choice for sounding "inside" on a Dominant chord that's leading to a Imin, is Mixolydian b9/b13 (same as b2/b6), also called Phrygian Major (Phrygian w/ a major 3rd) which also can be thought of as the fifth mode of Harmonic Minor.

Carol Kaye's concept is right, chord tones and chromatic approaches are the essence. But scale knowledge isn't a bad thing if you understand what the chord tones are and how the tensions ("scale notes") sound over a specific chord.

Example: If you think "triads" over a chord, you'll get the same notes that are in the scale. Think "Ab minor triad" over G7, that gives you the b2/b9, major 3rd and b6/b13 of G7.

Now think "Bb minor triad" over G7, that'll give you the #2/#9, b5 and dominant 7th.

Those same notes (b2, #2, b5, b6) are provided by the altered scale (7th mode of MM). It doesn't matter which way you think of it, as long as you "know" how a b2 will sound over a dominant chord. And even more specifically, how it will sound in the octave that you play it in. If you finish a musical phrase an that b2, let's say in G7 the Ab on the fourth fret of the E string, it'll simply sound horrible, as if the bass player played wrong by a half step.
 
#10
basskidd said:
(Pun intended...) :hiding:

I'm looking for some help with understanding where and how to use the melodic minor scale in a Jazz setting.
As far as I can figure out (and please feel free to correct me on this) the root of the Melodic Minor is the b3 of a half diminished (IIm7b5) chord (so on a Dm7b5 the root of the MM would be F).
When it comes to an altered dominant 7th chord (V7alt), it would start on the b9 (if the chord were a G7alt the root of the MM would be Ab).
Again, please stop me because I'm not 100% sure this is all theoretically correct.
The reason I ask is because, when I practice with this, it doesn't sound... right. So, either I've gotten my theory all jumbled up, or I'm not playing it right...

Let's assume I have the theory right (and even if I don't). What's a good way to practice the scale over quick II V I progressions in a minor key?

Thanks
Click to expand...
You have the basics right about what you described about the half-diminished and the altered chord
BUT HERE IS THE THING TO KNOW:

The melodic minor scale doesn't define a minor tonality but the minor harmonic scale does. If you want to play a ii-v-i in a minor key, it is best to use the MH scale from the tonic.

BUT, the MM is a great scale to form other scales or modes that can be use in specific ways. Like on the xmin7(b5), the sixth mode of the MM scale is called Locrian (#2) because of the whole -step between the the first 2 notes compare to the Locrian formed on the major scale.

Actually, to put the MM scales at use in a ii-v-i in C minor here is what you can do:

Over Dmin7(b5), play F min melodic
Over the G7 alt. play Ab min melodic
Over the C min, play C min melodic

Or for a plain sound, play only C min harmonic


Hope this helps,

GM
 

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