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Double Bass Bassist Career

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#41
Hi mcnaire.

I'd like to let you know what i think both about doing 3 majors, and also about the career and salary of an orchestral musician.

Firstly about taking on such a huge amount of work when in college. (although i don't know first hand the american college system, i hope this is relevant!)

i'm auditioning for a masters degree next month. I've been only practicing (and doing a very rare gig) for a year and taking lessons since i grauduated from a Music College last year. It was a 4 year course, and while it was performance based, the course also involved pedagogy, music history, music technology and recording, rudiments, harmony, analysis, counterpoint, composition, music educational psychology, orchestration, conducting, musicianship skills, repertory studies...the list goes on. The system is different to the system in the US, however ther are similarites. You have to study all the subjects to a certain level (and some are obligatory through all your time - eg musicianship and performance), but you have to focus mainly(equiv. to major?) on one subject group and to a lesser extent two others do be decided before you enter years 3 and 4. I took performance as my main option, and also pedagogy (bass), and 'orchestration and conducting'.

Let me tell you, it was a gruelling time. It's no joke trying to keep you chops in good shape AND focus on building teaching files, orchestrating piano pieces for symphony orchestra and trying to learn a section of an opera score. And my chioces (apart from performance) were seen as the 'easiest' (esp compared to composition which is an even further drain).

The masters course I'm auditioning for is a performance course, which i'm delighted about - i plan to become an professional orchestral musician. Practicing 4 - 6 hours a day REALLY takes its toll on you, and even more so when you've got a bust day.

Think of it this way - in a completely free day you will be able to practice probably about 6 hours before you are too physically and mentally tired for any more. So let say you get up at 8, have brakfast and are practicing by 9 (hard to do!) and go till 12. then it's lunchtime. You begin again at say 2, and go till 5. Then it's dinnertime, and you're beat. So from 7-11, just 4 hours, is your only free time to do the normal stuff people must do - shop, do laundry etc. Factor in 3 - 5 hours of classes and suddenly you can't practice as much as you'd like. Now factor in a further one hour of work a day for each of your 3 main subjects. Now you're down to about 3 hours practice - still not too bad maybe. But what about those lessons you'll have to give when doing pedagogy, and the extra time you'll have to spend doing essays, composing. And the time getting from class to class (maybe you're lucky enough to have all classes on the same campus). I'd be surprised if you could do 2 hours practice every day for your whole time in college with such a workload. And although you don't really undrstand untill your in the middle of it, the stress of any college degree is HUGE.

Now, i'm not trying to dampen your hopes or you obvious enthusiasm for th bass. You say your aspirations are mainly to be an orchestral player - well then go for it! FOCUS ON PRACTICING. If you become a beast of a player, then private students will come find you, and you will be wanted for that odd gig around town.

As for the second part of my replay, regarding salaries etc. You really don't need to even think about what salaries are untill you are finished your degree. Yes, people can make a living by working in the orchestra, that's all you really need to know for now, right? And keeping an ear open and checking out websites, meeting orchestral players this is all stuff you'll do over the course of your time in college.

Good luck!
 
#42
mcnaire2004 said:
I was talking about conservatories. I wasn't clear. Sorry. When I said ,"Thanks but a lot of conservatories offer music ed. Those are not the only music colleges in the world thanks though. " I meant to say that Curtis and Juilliard arn't the only music colleges in the world.

I he gave the most direct advice. No rudeness from (if infact you were talking about me). I really was being direct. I don't mean to come off rude in any way.
Click to expand...

Alright mcnaire, but that wasn't the part of my post that really mattered. You really need to realize that you would be stretching yourself way too thin. I think pretty much everyone has been very direct with all their advice but you still don't like to hear the negatives of it. We're definitely not trying to dampen your spirits, but you do need to be atleast somewhat realistic. Not that there is any problem w/ having 30-50 students IMO, but is that something you really want to go into college planning for?
 
#43
It's going to take some community building to get 30-40 students. I know lots of guys and gals who have done so.

You need to get involved with several middle school teachers and build over a few years.

You also really need to know what you are doing teaching and not just playing. That is where the pedagogy comes in. Teaching well ensures that your students stay and don't drop out after a year or two and also boosts your referrals.

There is a guy in Houston Andy who has a good thing going:

http://thebassstudio.com/

Also to make it I think you have to do a little of everything. I know a guy who did an undergrad in education, masters in music history and a doctorate in performance who became the librarian of a major symphony. You have to be pretty open minded to be able to not just say yes when your phone rings, but also to seize opportunities and make things happen.

There is a violist\violinist in town who does a pretty neat concert series with singer songwriters in a local church. He uses his composition and improv skills to do string arrangements for their songs and sells out his concerts.

Another guy I know wrote some fiddling books. Stringing out three degrees over a period of years and getting an undergrad in one thing, then masters and doctorates in others will not only help you network and meet other people who can help down the road, it would also boost a starting public school salary quite a bit.

Good luck to you.

P.S. most of my advice comes from personal failure, so take it with a grain of salt.

PPS Watch the debt. I graduated debt free from a state school, did it on scholarship and gigging. I don't think I would be happy with Ivy-League debt of $120k hanging over my head.
 
#44
Conor McCarthy's nailed this as far as a perf. major goes. As far as practicing 2 hours a day -- there's no way you'll be able to keep up with any of your fellow Performance majors. When you come out of school, simply by the virtue of the fact that you didn't have the same time to practice, you'll be left in the dust while your fellow graduates are winning auditions (because they practiced upwards of 5 and 6 hours a day.)

This sounds like a great recipe for playing last chair bass for the rest of your life. That, and emotional/mental/social suicide. I'd be more polite, but you've shrugged off every piece of practical advice from people who have been there. Aside from actually making in through THREE majors simultaneously, how the hell do you even plan to get the prerequisites together for all three majors for a major conservatory? This isn't Candyland, dude. You need to commit to a major, or everything you do will suffer because you're just trying to do too many things at once -- and I'm not just talking about music.
 
#45
I'll say one last thing McNaire and then I'm done.

I play full time in a 35 week orchestra. That averages 20 or so hours of rehearsal and performance a week. I teach an average of 15 students +/- 1or2 a week. Teaching takes up about 20 hours a week. I practice another 20 hours a week.

I suspect when you talk about your teacher having 35 students you are also counting the electric bass players and the jazz players. You know Knoxville is a bigger city than Chattanooga, has more schools with string players, you'd have to look hard to find 35 bass players wanting classical lessons. Then there is like 4 or 5 guys here that teach. I'm inclined to think that most places are going to be competitive for students. Nobody here has 35 students. Also I'd like to say that I doubt your teacher teaches that many and plays in an orchestra. If I remember correctly he's a jazz player.

Finally and I didn't want to be petty but, 5 of my students housed your *ss at All-East and judging by the scores I saw you've got a long way to go. Fortunately none of them deluded themselves into thinking they can go and major in three really challenging areas of musical study. I really get sick and tired of people thinking that making a living in this business is easy. Show some respect, I was only trying to give you useful advice and hope to save you pain, embarrasment, and heart-ache in the future.

Peace you all, bierbass over and gone.
 
#48
Mcnaire, if you're not seriously looking at schools like Indiana and CCM, then you clearly don't have a clue where you should be looking.

Honestly, I wouldn't be proud of the fact that your teacher has 35 students. Mine has three, and he's gotten amazing results. This year, I got into Rice Unversity, and the other two got into Curtis. We're the only students he's ever had.

What I'm trying to say is that he's able to give us his time and attention, without worrying about his other 30+ students. I'd be looking for a teacher who would make you a project of his that he would be as committed to as you are. Would your current teacher care much if you quit today? You're not going to get into the best schools, regardless of what you plan to do there, if your teacher isn't giving you the attention you need.
 
#49
PaulCannon said:
Mcnaire, if you're not seriously looking at schools like Indiana and CCM, then you clearly don't have a clue where you should be looking.

Honestly, I wouldn't be proud of the fact that your teacher has 35 students. Mine has three, and he's gotten amazing results. This year, I got into Rice Unversity, and the other two got into Curtis. We're the only students he's ever had.

What I'm trying to say is that he's able to give us his time and attention, without worrying about his other 30+ students. I'd be looking for a teacher who would make you a project of his that he would be as committed to as you are. Would your current teacher care much if you quit today? You're not going to get into the best schools, regardless of what you plan to do there, if your teacher isn't giving you the attention you need.
Click to expand...

+1. Mcnaire, I really still think you need to look into getting a teacher in the Atlanta area if it's a feasible thing for you. I'm sure you could somehow hook up with someone in the ASO section. Like it was mentioned, just because your teacher has a lot of students doesn't mean he's an amazing teacher. You need a classical bass player to teach you how to play classical bass if you plan to pursue it as a career.
Also, about the composition thing? Have you ever taken any classes in theory? Stuff like counterpoint, analysis, some writing maybe? A composition class so you know some of the contemporary styles of composition? Any music history classes? All stuff that would be really important.
There are a lot of kids from Atlanta that go to MSM. If you'd like, I could ask around as far as some teachers in the area that you might want to look up. Send me a PM if you're interested.
 
#51
bierbass said:
I'll say one last thing McNaire and then I'm done.

I play full time in a 35 week orchestra. That averages 20 or so hours of rehearsal and performance a week. I teach an average of 15 students +/- 1or2 a week. Teaching takes up about 20 hours a week. I practice another 20 hours a week.

I suspect when you talk about your teacher having 35 students you are also counting the electric bass players and the jazz players. You know Knoxville is a bigger city than Chattanooga, has more schools with string players, you'd have to look hard to find 35 bass players wanting classical lessons. Then there is like 4 or 5 guys here that teach. I'm inclined to think that most places are going to be competitive for students. Nobody here has 35 students. Also I'd like to say that I doubt your teacher teaches that many and plays in an orchestra. If I remember correctly he's a jazz player.

Finally and I didn't want to be petty but, 5 of my students housed your *ss at All-East and judging by the scores I saw you've got a long way to go. Fortunately none of them deluded themselves into thinking they can go and major in three really challenging areas of musical study. I really get sick and tired of people thinking that making a living in this business is easy. Show some respect, I was only trying to give you useful advice and hope to save you pain, embarrasment, and heart-ache in the future.

Peace you all, bierbass over and gone.
Click to expand...
First of all you don't have a clue who I am. So you don't know who's score are mine. I in no way got "housed". The first 3 chaires were all around 23-2600 points. (I am assuming you are the teacher of bassist 1 &3). After that it was only about 100 points difference in chair. 8th and 9th chaire had a Huge drop off by about 250,300 points for seventh chair. I happend not to be in the 8th or 9th spots. I believe I had 1900 something points. I admit I didn't practice so I wasn't in the top 4. I was no way "housed". The top 3 were the ones with the high points. The people in front of me didn't beet me by more than 100 points. Second, I am in no way saying this is an easy life. This thread was meant to be (if you read the first post) me asking others of how they make their money. And what all I can do to to make music my life. I did say I will have a tripple degree. Which I intend to do. I did say 6 years. But if it takes longer thats fine with me. I can wait 8 years if I have to. Look at the score sheet. Put down the initials of who you think I am. Hint. There are only three bassist from Chattanooga. Not all of them went to Chattanooga High school. I'll be in knoxville may 19th through the 21st if you would like to hear me play yourself. I'll be at UTK's Honors festival.
 
#54
Max,

I think people are getting a little angry because music (and music colleges etc) are so close to our hearts. It seems that it's not just me who thinks it's a real challange to do a performance major. And when you don't reply to people's honest advice and opinions in any way, or in a negative way, you can see how people get worked up. Do you not think that the reason this thread has not at all focused on salaries is because people are alot more concerned that you'll run yourself into the ground doing 3 majors?

So you must know by now that the 3 majors IS a bigger issue than salaries - how are you gonna get paid if you can't get into an orchestra? ;)

What does you teacher think of the idea? And if you know where you want to go to college - or even if there's a handfull, why not get in touch with those teachers and see what they think too? I'd be shocked if it was much different than the advice you are getting here.

Also, having alot of students does not reflect on the quality of the teacher, My teacher has about 50 students, from beginner level up to Masters, and he is one of the best in Europe. His students have got top jobs and trials with the best even since i've known him.

If you are COMPLETELY sure that you want to do 3 majors, and NOBODY is going to change your mind, then let us know so we can stop trying to persuade you otherwise! :D But if there is even the littlest doubt in your mind that it might just be not the best situation to put yourself in when you're aiming to be the best player you can be, then for god's sake call someone whose advice will make a difference.

And as for getting 7th chair - so what? We've ALL been there. You're in the orchestra, and you seem to want a career as a professional player. It won't matter a damn when you're audtioning for a pro orchestra where you sit now! And it's alot harder to sit closer that back of the section than closer the front, so, while your still learning you might as well give yourself a challenge!
 
#55
I'm pretty sure there isn't a "conservatory" in the country that would actually allow you to have three majors at once. If it really is so important to you, you could always go through once for a performance degree and then go onto graduate school for something else.

I really don't understand your need for the composition degree. Do you already compose? Do you take theory and composition lessons? Do you understand that every conservatory in the world is most likely going to require you send a portfolio before they let you major in composition at their school? That means you can't be a novice before you go. Just like you can't have picked up the bass five weeks before an audition.

Even if you only have one major, that won't preclude you from taking composition classes. You'll need to take electives, and it would be far less time-consuming than trying to meet all the requirements for three degrees.
 
#58
I'm not sweating me being 7th chair. Hell, I admit I deserve to be last chair for practicing like 30-40 mins total on the audition piece. But, I have had a recent burst of chops (mainly becaues I started practicing all day). It's all good to me.
 
#59
Sorry for the amount of posts. But, I am doing my Sr. project on writing a bass concerto (a bass here at tyner did it a couple of years ago). I want to do everything now so I can free up time in the next couple of years. I was wondering if any one here would like to be interviewed on AIM or YIM some time? People with experiance only please.
 
#60
mcnaire2004 said:
I'm not sweating me being 7th chair
Click to expand...

Here's my .02.

You seem to be approaching college the same way you have approached everything else you've cared to share on TB. Last month you "mastered" the dragonetti in 7 days, but did not win the audition. Now you're asking about Koussevitsky fingerings, and talking about Bach suites. In the meantime you aren't even placing well in local orchestras due to 30-40 minute practice sessions? I don't doubt you have some ability, and drive - but you really need to learn to focus. Without that I don't care how talented or driven you are, I promise you won't make it at any level (which is evident now). In almost all of your threads someone gets irritated that you ask for advice but then don't like what you hear. Oh wait, now you've moved on to writing a bass concerto...

I don't know how to say it better than this: SETTLE DOWN BEAVIS!

:rollno:
 
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