Bassist existentialism

[MrUsefulAlien]

Looking to get a bit of perspective on what is a hair-splitting debate about definitions I've been having with myself, yet still I find myself thinking about the topic a lot.

The debate, in my head, ping-pongs on the notion of: "do I consider myself a professional musician?"

I've read many threads on the topic, but I keep coming back to this idea of "I haven't committed myself to a career in music, so I'm not sure I think of myself as a professional musician".

For a bit of background, I've studied classical flute from ages 8-18, picked up bass in a high school band at 14 and haven't stopped since, I'm now 32.

I started getting paid to play in bar bands at age 20 and moved to Europe 5 years ago.
I've since played in 30-40 ensembles and projects, where the last couple of years have seen a lot of live session work, where I get hired to play a few shows or mini tours and also back up some busy bassists.
I've been hired to do studio work, with standard notation and have received calls to play in groups across many genres. I even had 5-6 students at one point.

The last few months have been awful with my "other job" of teaching English, so rent and expenses have been covered by bass work.

Yet I'm still not committed to music as a main income source.
I'm a PhD student in economics and management and I very much see my career in academia both teaching and publishing.

I just don't have the courage to go for music full time and long term, is the conclusion to this.
A pianist's mother asked my visiting mother why I don't make a career out of music?

That got me thinking about the topic again and facing the fact that I just don't believe I can lead a financially stable life with music, even though I tremendously love being part of the musician community and forming close friendships, playing bass, thinking about music, and of course buying many basses!

 

[Nebadon2000]

My definition of a 'Professional'[ those careers that carry that label] is someone who makes a good living and highly skilled at whatever it is IE: Athlete, Actor, Musician, ETC.

Many disagree here and believe if you got paid $5.00 to play your cousin Becky's birthday party you are now a Pro

I have paled 1.5k+ gig's in Clubs 15 years straight at one time 3 to 5 a week, Back in Long Island for 3 years when I was in my early 20's it was my only source of income and a decent one at that BUT I have never at any time considered myself a Pro Musician. Just a Bass Player

 

[41hzthunder]

Mmmm. Its not just a question of what you do, whether you get paid for it or even how good you are. It does include a time element. I played bar circuit from age 15 to 22. I made good money and it was my sole income. So professional then, yes. I don't consider myself professional now, since I don't make money at it, but don't consider myself an amatuer either. If you are part-time paid and gigging, I'd say professional. I don't think skill is the qualifier, as long as you are able to play your genre and sound good. True professions are licensed and self regulating, so I don't think music is exactly comparable. Our mistakes live.

 

[LP Custom]

I stink; therefore I clam.

 

[dougjwray]

I made 100% of my living playing bass for several years in the '80s. A pro.
Before and after that time, I had silly part-time jobs to help pay the rent while I made money playing bass. Maybe a pro with supplemental income?
In 1994, I started a full-time job in an unrelated field, as a certified professional (got a master's degree). I haven't stopped making money as a bass player, and the work has mostly been at the "professional level"-- gigging and recording with really good people with national reputations.
Am I an amateur? It's complicated.

 

[LBS-bass]

I've discovered here that there's professional in the strict sense of how you make your living but also a lot of conflating that with proper behavior such as folks who show up on time, learn their parts, help load in, help load out, etc., often consider that "pro." I don't argue because that is certainly a big part of professionalism for me, but in a strict sense one's profession is the way they earn a living. So you'll hear a lot of arguing both sides.

For me, I made a living playing bass for a decade, so I was a professional musician back then. It's what I put down then on forms as my primary occupation. It isn't now, so at this point I consider myself a hobbyist with a lot of experience.

 

[dougjwray]

Isn't it possible to be a professional in two jobs at once?
The trumpet player Eddie Henderson was a medical doctor from 1975 to 1985, during which time he also worked as a musician with Herbie Hancock, Norman Connors, Gary Bartz, Richard Davis and others. I assume that he was making more money as a doctor. Does that mean that his playing with Herbie, et al. was a hobby?

 

[LBS-bass]

Isn't it possible to be a professional in two jobs at once?
The trumpet player Eddie Henderson was a medical doctor from 1975 to 1985, during which time he also worked as a musician with Herbie Hancock, Norman Connors, Gary Bartz, Richard Davis and others. I assume that he was making more money as a doctor. Does that mean that his playing with Herbie, et al. was a hobby?

Yes, and these are the kinds of oddball cases people bring up when they want to argue over this. I actually don't care how you define it. I think if you are making a substantial amount of money with music it's certainly fair to call that playing professionally. If you made $50 at a bar last weekend and you want to call yourself professional, I also don't care

 

[MrUsefulAlien]

Thanks for the responses, as I said, it might be a false binary, there's grey zones there.
I was reflecting on the fact that externally one could argue I do music professionally, not that the label matters, but more about this deliberation of whether to go pedal-to-the-metal with music as a central career path.
But as @dougjwray pointed out, engaging in another profession doesn't necessarily have a bearing on being a musician.
At my current point in life, bass is my main income. But whether the label professional or not is present, I very much find myself at home around musicians and music creation.

 

[Polfuste]

I'm a pure hobbyist with a Professional attitude: know my parts, working amps, bass, etc, be on time, be cool with everybody, smile, give pleasure to people during gigs.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Looking to get a bit of perspective on what is a hair-splitting debate about definitions I've been having with myself, yet still I find myself thinking about the topic a lot.

The debate, in my head, ping-pongs on the notion of: "do I consider myself a professional musician?"

I've read many threads on the topic, but I keep coming back to this idea of "I haven't committed myself to a career in music, so I'm not sure I think of myself as a professional musician".

For a bit of background, I've studied classical flute from ages 8-18, picked up bass in a high school band at 14 and haven't stopped since, I'm now 32.

I started getting paid to play in bar bands at age 20 and moved to Europe 5 years ago.
I've since played in 30-40 ensembles and projects, where the last couple of years have seen a lot of live session work, where I get hired to play a few shows or mini tours and also back up some busy bassists.
I've been hired to do studio work, with standard notation and have received calls to play in groups across many genres. I even had 5-6 students at one point.

The last few months have been awful with my "other job" of teaching English, so rent and expenses have been covered by bass work.

Yet I'm still not committed to music as a main income source.
I'm a PhD student in economics and management and I very much see my career in academia both teaching and publishing.

I just don't have the courage to go for music full time and long term, is the conclusion to this.
A pianist's mother asked my visiting mother why I don't make a career out of music?

That got me thinking about the topic again and facing the fact that I just don't believe I can lead a financially stable life with music, even though I tremendously love being part of the musician community and forming close friendships, playing bass, thinking about music, and of course buying many basses!

You are, indeed, a professional musician. The only thing wrong is your perspective. I look at it like this:
I am a professional musician who daylights as a software developer to enhance my income.

There are very few musicians who make their living on music alone. Even symphony members will take non music jobs because their music income will not sustain them.

 

[JRA]

"do I consider myself a professional musician?"

IME: these were/are some of the "pro" credentials:
- plays proficiently, a demonstrable ability.
- A.F. of M. member (some have AFTRA/other cards).
- primary* source of income, i.e., willing to work.
- adheres to a quality of standards/conduct appropriate for the work.

per the discussion: playing for money on the weekends may or may not be "pro." but, you could also work one day a year, or make an album every 10 years, and/or other music-related stuff and be a "professional musician" per the 'credentials', above, so there's that!

* or a significant and reliable part of livelihood, e.g., "pays bills and/or buys basic necessities."


per the OP: let me be the first to congratulate you for being a professional musician! your check is in the mail!

 

[LBS-bass]

per the discussion: playing for money on the weekends may or may not be "pro." but, you could also work one day a year, or make an album every 10 years, and/or other music-related stuff and be a "professional musician" per the 'credentials', above, so there's that!

I think you view it differently, perhaps, when you have done it for a living and are not doing that now. I don't view what I do today as anywhere in the same category as what I did when I was in my 20's. I don't want to travel the way I did then, either. I'm quite happy to be a hobbyist but I don't have professional aspirations that are still unmet, either. Makes a difference.

 

[JRA]

my 'list of credentials' was a reflection of what i'm used to = "how i came up"

I think you view it differently, perhaps, when you have done it for a living and are not doing that now.

maybe....

I don't view what I do today as anywhere in the same category as what I did when I was in my 20's.

same (i might include some other decades, too!)

I don't want to travel the way I did then, either.

same.

I'm quite happy to be a hobbyist

same.

I don't have professional aspirations that are still unmet

same.

what's not to like?

and FWIW: i consider a bunch of folks on TB to be "pros" whether they would claim that distinction or not. you're one of 'em!

 

[LBS-bass]

my 'list of credentials' was a reflection of what i'm used to = "how i came up"

That's pretty much how it was when I started. I started at 19 and my bandmates were at least a decade older, so I was schooled in a bunch of this stuff by some folks who came into music during the days when the union still had a few teeth left, though not very many. We would joke that you'd be guaranteed a union job on New Year's Eve, but that might be the only job you'd get from them.

Although I play in several bands, the only thing I'm really halfway serious about these days is songwriting and production, and there's not a snowball's chance that ever makes money, so it will always be an expensive hobby for me. I'm happy with that.

I think it's a little sad that the opportunities we had to actually do this full time are mostly gone and musicians coming up behind us have less opportunity to experience that lovely grind of five nights and five towns per week, all year long

But I don't mind if people who are doing what I do now want to think about that in "pro" terms. It's good that they are serious about making it good, and doing all the right things.

 

[JRA]

It's good that they are serious about making it good, and doing all the right things.

....as a "pro" would do!

 

[El Güero]

The debate, in my head, ping-pongs on the notion of: "do I consider myself a professional musician?"

<Fu Face ON>
Ahh, Grasshopper, ask yourself this, "Does anyone else consider me a professional musician?"
<Fu Face OFF>

 

[micguy]

There are those on this forum that will tell you that being a professional means you get paid. There are those who will argue that a professional is someone who works to a high standard. The debate here will never end.

I lean more towards the second, as I tend to think that someone who doesn't work at their craft, and flails away at the local pub without inspiring anyone shouldn't think of them self as professional, just because they got some beer money.

 

[MrUsefulAlien]

IME: these were/are some of the "pro" credentials:
- plays proficiently, a demonstrable ability.
- A.F. of M. member (some have AFTRA/other cards).
- primary* source of income, i.e., willing to work.
- adheres to a quality of standards/conduct appropriate for the work.

per the discussion: playing for money on the weekends may or may not be "pro." but, you could also work one day a year, or make an album every 10 years, and/or other music-related stuff and be a "professional musician" per the 'credentials', above, so there's that!

* or a significant and reliable part of livelihood, e.g., "pays bills and/or buys basic necessities."


per the OP: let me be the first to congratulate you for being a professional musician! your check is in the mail!

That's hysterical

 

[MrUsefulAlien]

There are those on this forum that will tell you that being a professional means you get paid. There are those who will argue that a professional is someone who works to a high standard. The debate here will never end.

I lean more towards the second, as I tend to think that someone who doesn't work at their craft, and flails away at the local pub without inspiring anyone shouldn't think of them self as professional, just because they got some beer money.

That's fair enough, I was trying to gauge it by inner intention and orientation towards full investment in music, in the mythical ways of the olden days (how they're portrayed, but necessarily what actually happened!).
I play for more than bar money, and the live session work ranges between playing functions to some bigger festivals and very well compensated studio work where I'm hired to just do bass without any other affiliation to the person that hired me, ie, not a band I'm in.
Either way, what I was going for is to hear others' stories of how you've dealt with the silly question of a label, and I'm grateful you all are sharing something.