Double Bass Been away from upright for quite a while - why mixed string sets?

[Silverface]

I played some upright in a bluegrass band back in the late 70's/early 80's and for about 7 years (starting 15 years ago) in a country rock/country swing band (a shared Englehardt the first time; a band-owned Kay S-9 Swingmaster the second). On the Englehardt I used whatever was on it when we bought it us & on the Kay..whichhad thrashed strings when we go t it... I bought whatever light gage the old World of Strings recommended.

When I talked to other bluegrass and "acoustic group" bass players about upright "gear" most knew less than I did (I at least had some instrument tech training & experience - basic repairs, bridge fitting, soundpost setting etc). But strings were "light", "medium", "gut" or "beats the **** out of me!"

I can't gig any longer (disabled by chronic pain and some other junk) but am a multi-instrumentalist and tech in my "retirement",. I just play at home. Recently I bailed out a friend's daughter by buying her damaged Upton Hawkes dirt cheap (she wanted to give it away to get rid of it.), figuring it'd be fun to mess around with. It had some kind of steel strings on it. After I got it in playable shape I bought a set of cheap weedwhackers to try (I also have left wrist issues). So, of course - the steel are too stiff and the weedwackers sound like mud.

Whew - LONG intro....

So - I started shopping for used strings since new ones are so &@#%@ expensive. I might play an hour or two a week, very simple stuff, and with fixed income I can't afford to "experiment" and almost everything I see is/are loose singles and mixed sets.

What the ****?

I found a set I think will work - so I'm ok for now. But I've VERY confused!

On guitar and other instruments I'll switch *a* gage of one string where and there - but otherwise I keep about 20 different sets of strings around for different specific instruments.

But NOT a D'Addario nickel plated low E/Thomastik flat "A"/Ernie Ball pure nickel "D"/GHS stainless steel "G" and Unobtania plain plutonium "B" and "E".

Everyone I know uses stock sets on their electric basses too, same as me.

What's so weirdly different about upright basses that they are the only apparent exception to "string normalcy"? Long intro, short question, probably a complicated answer - but I can't wrap my head around the whole concept!

Thanks-

 

[Steven Ayres]

Variables in the setup and response of a bass are theoretically the same as those of other stringed instruments, but I think the effects of those variables are more obvious on the bass. Basses respond to strings and playing style in different ways, so, above a certain sensitivity to detail, one size usually doesn't fit all and a single string change can make a significant difference in how the bass sounds and feels. Add in the difference between pizz and arco response, as well as how much a given player does each, and you wind up with a wide range of different needs.

 

[Silverface]

Seems to make sense - but then so would differences in carved-top archtop guitars, differences between flatpicking, fingerpicking (with picks), fingerpicking (without picks) etc etc.

As a tech I don't find the size of the instrument is any type of determining factor in string type selection, with jumbo guitars, archtops and mandolins (with different construction styles) all having their own string "type" requirements based on the instrument and the player's style/technique etc. As such it just doesn't "click" that there's any specific thing (or things) about upright bass construction and/or playing that would make it a very expensive exception.

And if it is why haven't the string companies simply come up with sets that match player needs? Many of the same string companies make a wide assortment of "acoustic guitar" gets, for example - and make quite a few different upright bass sets as-is. So....

..while I understand the response, there still seem to be a lot of holes.

 

[Sam Dingle]

Seems to make sense - but then so would differences in carved-top archtop guitars, differences between flatpicking, fingerpicking (with picks), fingerpicking (without picks) etc etc.

As a tech I don't find the size of the instrument is any type of determining factor in string type selection, with jumbo guitars, archtops and mandolins (with different construction styles) all having their own string "type" requirements based on the instrument and the player's style/technique etc. As such it just doesn't "click" that there's any specific thing (or things) about upright bass construction and/or playing that would make it a very expensive exception.

And if it is why haven't the string companies simply come up with sets that match player needs? Many of the same string companies make a wide assortment of "acoustic guitar" gets, for example - and make quite a few different upright bass sets as-is. So....

..while I understand the response, there still seem to be a lot of holes.

Some of it comes down to personal preference, some comes down to the individual instrument itself. I will say before getting into it that you should look at the violin, viola and cello. I had the pleasure of sitting in with the orchestra here and from the bass section the only stringed instruments that had a full set of the same string was the violin in front of me and the 2nd bass chair. Everyone else I could see had mixed sets.

I'll give an example while talking about some people here. Instrument wise some instruments do well with a mixed set. John Pattatucci plays a bass with Evahs on the ADG (sometimes an oliv G) and a Spiro on the low E because his bass is so old he needs a bright string down there to make the notes come out

@SamuelHarris Has a bass that I believe has weird over tones on the G string that make it sound thinner than normal so he uses a different G string

In the world of preference:

@Chris Fitzgerald plays with a hard pull so likes more tension than normal on the E string, so he plays with a heavier lower string ( a Spiro heavy E). He would probably be fine and his bass would sound fine with a regular E string but changing it works better.

I find that on my bass the spiro E and A are perfect for pizz and fine for arco, but the D and G are perfect for pizz and horrible for arco, so I'm looking for something to make it a Hybrid. So I want to mix for a specific need. It's a preference and instrument thing.


That may not answer your question but it gives a few reasons

 

[HateyMcAmp]

The first bass strings were inherently mixed sets, with wound gut bottoms and plain gut tops. Food for thought....

 

[Povl Carstensen]

It all went haywire when they moved away from plain guts.
Edit: Says the guy who uses a different brand of plain gut for his G.

 

[Peck_Time]

Guitars are very different in construction to strings.

You cannot extrapolate from guitars to stringed instruments.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

^^^ This.

The brute fact is that string choice and soundpost placement are the primary methods to change sound and response.

Basses don't have built-in or outboard EQ, or a knob that says "one louder."

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

In the world of preference:

@Chris Fitzgerald plays with a hard pull so likes more tension than normal on the E string, so he plays with a heavier lower string ( a Spiro heavy E). He would probably be fine and his bass would sound fine with a regular E string but changing it works better.

I find that on my bass the spiro E and A are perfect for pizz and fine for arco, but the D and G are perfect for pizz and horrible for arco, so I'm looking for something to make it a Hybrid. So I want to mix for a specific need. It's a preference and instrument thing.

The whole mixed string thing is a huge rabbit hole for sure, but Sam is correct that it comes down to preference. Most of my students play a single set of Spiro mediums if they are jazz majors, and a single set of Bel Cantos if they are classical majors. As they get older and more experienced - and earn some disposable income - they often start to experiment with mixed sets. Usually near of after graduation. One of my best students switched from an absolutely horrid set of non-Thomastik strings to Spiros this year and is as happy as can be.


[personal string rabbit hole story]
The current strings I use come from chasing a sound and a feel. I still remember when Dennis Irwin came to the school many years ago and borrowed my old American Standard bass with Spiros on it for a concert. He jacked them up at the bridge and pulled them hard on every stroke, and the sound out front was glorious. I was a pretty young and impressionable player then, mainly listening to Ray Brown, Ron Carter, Sam Jones, PC, Drew Gress, Charlie Haden, and Brian Bromberg and liking different things from all of them and trying to find a way to access all of those sounds on a single set of strings. That's a tall order!

Dennis' contribution to all of that was that I fell in love with that big relaxed full arm pull that gets way under the string and uses the weight of the whole arm. I didn't find the range on his two finger pull, but did experiment a lot and found that there are basically two ways to get that punch when you want it:
1) Do as he did and raise the string height way up so you can get deep under the string.
2) Set the strings at a medium height but use stiff strings that won't flop and bottom out when you pull hard and release.

I didn't physically care for the first approach as it tired my right arm quickly and didn't allow for some of the more subtle and quiet techniques I wanted to keep from the other players I was trying to emulate. But the second approach seemed like a good compromise, so I went with that. The Spiro stark E just balances out the set, and is the only E string I've ever met that will not fart out when you crush it.
[/personal string rabbit hole story]

 

[HateyMcAmp]

I have tried so many blends of strings over the years. Helicore Hybrid with Obligato G. Sprio medium E with Sprio Weich. Sprio Medium E with Helicore. Helicore orch g with Helicore Hybrid. Eurosonic medium G with Helicore Hybrid. Anima G with Spiro Weich. Garbo light, Anima, and Blue with gut G. Anima with gut D and G. Anima with Gabro D (Adrian Cho’s old setup.) Garbo light with plain gut D and G. Garbo light with plain gut A-G (with the insane pistoy A.) Eurosonic braided solo with fancy gut A-G. Innovation Goldenslap with gut G. Goldenslap E with NOS gut A-G. Velvet Blue with Goldenslap D, gut G. Supenil E and A, gut D and G. There are many more I’m forgetting, gaurunteed.

Anyway, I’m currently playing a full set of Spiros.

 

[Sam Dingle]

Anyway, I’m currently playing a full set of Spiros.

That's where we all end up I guess

 

[Don Hergert]

Like the OP, I'm looking at this pretty much from the bluegrass/acoustic-roots standpoint...

To my recollection only one of the bluegrass bassists that I've ever met uses mixed sets, and that's pretty much because he's conservatory trained and in the pro circuit, and honestly he knows MUCH more about playing and setting up basses than just about any other bluegrass bassist that I know, including me of course (and of course this person doesn't just play bluegrass).

For the rest of us, I get the impression that most of us bluegrass bassists just want a simpler life... And it may be a genre based cultural thing.

In my case the strings I'm using are the 2nd set I've had on this bass, the first set being a mixed set, and I just love how this set feels (SBW Deluxe). I don't love how the A and E strings sound somewhat muddy acoustically with pizz, but when plugged in direct or surprisingly, when played arco acoustically (or plugged in), they also sound great. While they are basically textured whackers, for jamming these strings are more than sufficient, they don't kill my fingers with hours of playing, and for playing on stage the bass is plugged in and sounds great. At least the SBW Deluxe strings come in a 6-string bump pack so you do have some selection about tension (which does allow for a mixed set of sorts).

Anyway, I'm reading carefully thoughts about mixed sets and I'm taking notes about them... I haven't ruled out the possibility of going mixed sometime in future, however for now I really do prefer the "simpler life" with what I'm using.

 

[Silverface]

Great answers all - thank for taking the time! I truly appreciate the thoughtful answers. A few thoughts -

The first bass strings were inherently mixed sets, with wound gut bottoms and plain gut tops. Food for thought....

Which is really no different than wound bass/gut treble classical guitar or wound bass/plain steel strings on virtually every other instrument.

Guitars are very different in construction to strings.

You cannot extrapolate from guitars to stringed instruments.

Respectfully - I disagree. Not all of them are that different. Archtop guitars and mandolins (whether carved or pressed, and solid or laminated) are not significantly different except for soundposts - which are even present on some carved-top guitar and mandolins, many modern resonator guitars (which have their own acoustic quirks) and even some flattop instruments.

As a tech I see an infinite range of construction styles and dozens of string manufacturing styles/materials/methods. When you remove the size factor inherent in upright basses the acoustic properties show far more similarities than differences. And while I don't disbelieve what any player hears and understand why some use mixed sets - tone being purely subjective - from a tech standpoint (understanding both instruments and strings) I perceive a hint of "orange drop vs yellow Mallory", "wide vs tight grain" "point to point vs printed circuit board", "lacquer vs polyurethane", "bone vs "Tusq", "oxygen-free copper/platinum shielded vs "it came with the guitar"" in the ^widespread* use of mixed sets.

Or - "THAT guy said he uses a set made up of what? Dang! I gotta try it, he knows everything!

(Threats and insults will be thoroughly understood and accepted. Just don't hex my parrots, the vet bills are too damned expensive!)

PS - Hey, if I could afford it I'd probably try mixing sets of *good* strings myself. But I can't, even with used ones - so hopefully the set coming in Monday will work fine. If they're not quite "there" I may take one more shot at it, but unlike 10 years ago I just don't have the budget to experiment.

 

[HateyMcAmp]

As a tech I see an infinite range of construction styles and dozens of string manufacturing styles/materials/methods. When you remove the size factor inherent in upright basses the acoustic properties show far more similarities than differences. And while I don't disbelieve what any player hears and understand why some use mixed sets - tone being purely subjective - from a tech standpoint (understanding both instruments and strings) I perceive a hint of "orange drop vs yellow Mallory", "wide vs tight grain" "point to point vs printed circuit board", "lacquer vs polyurethane", "bone vs "Tusq", "oxygen-free copper/platinum shielded vs "it came with the guitar"" in the ^widespread* use of mixed sets.

Or - "THAT guy said he uses a set made up of what? Dang! I gotta try it, he knows everything!

The BG side is very different in construction of members.

You cannot extrapolate from guitarists to string players.

 

[Silverface]

The BG side is very different in construction of members.

You cannot extrapolate from guitarists to string players.

I already addressed this and to repeat - I'm not "extrapolating" from guitars to upright bass. I've worked on a wide variety of stringed instruments since I started in 1972, including "string family" instruments and have at least some level of training in most types).

I encounter instruments of different types manufactured using both common and very unusual construction materials and methods, any of which I'm sure members here have never seen.

So while guitar is my primary instrument used in making music my tech work encompasses far more. I thought that had been made clear - sorry.

 

[Peck_Time]

A few points-

1) Gut and steel strings sound objectively different to each other both pizz and arco.

2) The tension of gut and steel string set are very different, both string to string and across the set.

3) Basses can vary immensely in their response to the same set of strings.

4) Constructing a set of strings that works well on an individual bass and that produces the required tonal / tension balance may require a custom mix of strings.

 

[Sam Dingle]

Too add more to this, some basses for whatever reason are much brighter than others. Some basses sound super dark with spirocores and can be happily bowed in an orchestra section. Some basses sound horrible with them. I find this even with my electrics. My fender jazz sounds good with D'Addairo nickels. My sadowsky does not.

Also the tension of a Spirocore medium is great for a low C extension. Because of the thicker gauge and low notes it is also warmer to bow then the Spirocore G string.

The belcanto long C I have heard is very light and dark on some basses so some people mix the two. But again it comes down to preference.

 

[RBrownBass]

I have tried so many blends of strings over the years. Helicore Hybrid with Obligato G. Sprio medium E with Sprio Weich. Sprio Medium E with Helicore. Helicore orch g with Helicore Hybrid. Eurosonic medium G with Helicore Hybrid. Anima G with Spiro Weich. Garbo light, Anima, and Blue with gut G. Anima with gut D and G. Anima with Gabro D (Adrian Cho’s old setup.) Garbo light with plain gut D and G. Garbo light with plain gut A-G (with the insane pistoy A.) Eurosonic braided solo with fancy gut A-G. Innovation Goldenslap with gut G. Goldenslap E with NOS gut A-G. Velvet Blue with Goldenslap D, gut G. Supenil E and A, gut D and G. There are many more I’m forgetting, gaurunteed.

Anyway, I’m currently playing a full set of Spiros.

I never got used to the twang of the Spiro G, so while reading thru threads about what G to buy, I ran across a post from @iiipopes (thanks so much!) who listed the D'Addario Prelude G as an option. It matches the tension and gauge of a 4/4 Spiro Mitt G on a 3/4 mensure almost exactly, and cost only $20 shipped. I have it on my bass now, and I love it so much that I'm thinking of adding a D as well.

 

[Who da Ville]

I never got used to the twang of the Spiro G, so while reading thru threads about what G to buy, I ran across a post from @iiipopes (thanks so much!) who listed the D'Addario Prelude G as an option. It matches the tension and gauge of a 4/4 Spiro Mitt G on a 3/4 mensure almost exactly, and cost only $20 shipped. I have it on my bass now, and I love it so much that I'm thinking of adding a D as well.

I think this answers the original question very succinctly.

FWIW, the more I play my matched set of Spiro mediums (pizz & arco) the more I love what I can do with them. I don't find the G nearly as twangy (pizz) or screechy/goose-farty (arco) as when I first started playing it 5 years ago. So maybe, for some people, the string mix-&-match game may be a short-cut to the sound they're after, rather than spending the time to adapt their technique to the string...or maybe not...just a guess.

 

[iiipopes]

I think this answers the original question very succinctly.

FWIW, the more I play my matched set of Spiro mediums (pizz & arco) the more I love what I can do with them. I don't find the G nearly as twangy (pizz) or screechy/goose-farty (arco) as when I first started playing it 5 years ago. So maybe, for some people, the string mix-&-match game may be a short-cut to the sound they're after, rather than spending the time to adapt their technique to the string...or maybe not...just a guess.

It depends on the bass and the player. Sometimes a bass has so much top end response due to the maple body that any string will zing a little too much, especially a G. Sometimes a player just wants a different tone. Sometimes, the physical limitations of a player indicate a mixed set. Many orchestra players mix and match for these reasons, including arco response and relative feel. I would not characterize a mixed set as a short-cut in any sense of the phrase.