The point is that 'knowledge' learned from a book does not in any way supersede knowledge and mastery learned through ear training.
Joe.
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Beginner Lessons for the Advanced Bassist
- Thread starter Baird6869
- Start date
The point is that 'knowledge' learned from a book does not in any way supersede knowledge and mastery learned through ear training.
Joe.
The point is that 'knowledge' learned from a book does not in any way supersede knowledge and mastery learned through ear training.
Joe.
I think empirical knowledge supersedes any suppositions made by those without that knowledge and experience. Books have nothing to do with anything.
If you are happy to sit there crosseyed when people are telling you important information about the music you are playing and say "Hey, I don't play that because I don't learn from a book" so be it. Don't be surprised by the company you are forced to keep in a musical sense, but don't kid yourself that you are an advanced musician.
Advanced musicians don't just play shapes they have remembered, they are able to communicate ideas back and forth and analyse what they are doing.
I agree with everything you said except for your first point.
I do not consider myself an advanced musician by any stretch but I do consider myself an advanced bassist. I play material that many bassists with formal theoretical training might have problems playing. I can play almost any bass line created by many highly regarded bassists, I have jammed with famous musicians and absolutely held my own. I think I play very well and I have a pretty good ear.
My issue with my playing is that I don't UNDERSTAND what I am playing much of the time. I know what key I am in and what notes I am playing and that is it.
I will be taking lessons in any case as I am very interested in taking my playing to the next level.
P.S. Let's not forget that even masters like Jaco couldn't sight read a note until a couple of years into his recording career.
Even Michale Jordon had a coach.
I think I should always be learning. Weather it is from teachers or books, or jamming on stuff from a different genre or just thinking something up in the shower. That's the best part about any craft or art is that there is ALWAYS another level to reach for.
I think I should always be learning. Weather it is from teachers or books, or jamming on stuff from a different genre or just thinking something up in the shower. That's the best part about any craft or art is that there is ALWAYS another level to reach for.
Nah.
I'll play or listen to someone with no 'knowledge' but has ability and instincts over some twit with 'theory knowledge' and no instinct or ability any day.
Joe.
Thanks. I think this was exactly what I was trying to get at.
I can keep learning more songs, but I am not really learning and moving forward musically or technically.
Nah.
I'll play or listen to someone with no 'knowledge' but has ability and instincts over some twit with 'theory knowledge' and no instinct or ability any day.
Joe.
Ah, you have to love the old "play by feeler" justification for their own lack of understanding. The implication that someone who has a good knowledge of theory lacks "instinct" is laughable. As if you would ever claim that Sid Vicious is a better bass player than Jaco Pastorius, for example.
Really it's only people that lack understanding that make this type of assertion. The irony is that I would bet that most of the players any given person would rate would agree with me on this one.
Two things...
1. Don't be putting words in my mouth buster. Read what I said and take it as that.
2. See #1.
:scowl:
(sigh)
Joe.
What difference is there between being an advanced bass player and being an advanced musician? An advanced bass player is someone who can apply their playing to the context of the music they are playing with. That ability comes with a good general understanding of music.
You are also mistaken to believe that sight reading has anything to do with understanding theory. Sight reading is a tool that allows a musician to follow a pre written piece without having to memorise or pre-learn it. It doesn't tell the reader how to apply tonal theory to anything that isn't written on the page.
The justification "I can play any bassline" is really a null one in my opinion. It's not about what you can and can't play. It's about your ability to understand and assess your options and apply them to the situation.
Here is a hypothetical. Guy goes to a session and the client says to him, "ok, I want you to come up with a bassline for this part, I don't have a chart but it's in A minor, but there is a E7 in the 3rd measure". Who is the advanced bassplayer? The one who says "Ok, I'll try a melody that plays A minor and have the G# as a leading tone in the 3rd bar", or the one that says "Hey, I don't really know what you are saying but if you show me what to play and wait around all day while I figure it out, I can play anything you want"?
Try harder.
You can do it. I believe in you.
Joe.
I think maybe it's you who needs to try harder.
You would listen to someone who has no theory and feel over someone who understands theory and has no feel. Really quite irrelevant since you don't listen to a person's understanding of theory. So all your comment can be taken as is a devaluation of understanding theory. As I said before, the only people that make that kind of comment are people that are trying to justify what they lack.
On the other hand the person that understands theory will be better equipped with more choices and be able to relax with their playing over the person who has to struggle with their limitations. There are very few, if any, exceptions to this.
Your local community college or state college should have quality music theory instruction - or music theory plus keyboard. A lot of music theory gets explained in reference to the keyboard. You can of course learn it all on bass or any other instrument, but one point of learning music theory is to understand what other instruments are doing as well.
To me, it sounds like you do know some theory, you just don't know the terminology or the systems people use (there are several) to discuss theory. It does make listening/playing bass really fun and interesting to know more - and there are people on this board who prove that it also provides new ways and perspectives of playing bass.
The right kind of teacher could give you a few lessons - maybe spread out over time as you incorporate what you're learning into what you know - and you'd just speed along. I picture someone like the jazz band teacher at the local high school and community college, who teaches theory to everyone as they go along, painlessly and while learning new playing skills. He also used to give private lessons on stand up bass, mixing theory right in there with playing, he was sort of expensive but flexible in how many lessons you took. I've known lots of music teachers, and you really do want to find one who will respect what you already know and help you directly apply theoretical concepts to what you're already doing.
To me, it sounds like you do know some theory, you just don't know the terminology or the systems people use (there are several) to discuss theory. It does make listening/playing bass really fun and interesting to know more - and there are people on this board who prove that it also provides new ways and perspectives of playing bass.
The right kind of teacher could give you a few lessons - maybe spread out over time as you incorporate what you're learning into what you know - and you'd just speed along. I picture someone like the jazz band teacher at the local high school and community college, who teaches theory to everyone as they go along, painlessly and while learning new playing skills. He also used to give private lessons on stand up bass, mixing theory right in there with playing, he was sort of expensive but flexible in how many lessons you took. I've known lots of music teachers, and you really do want to find one who will respect what you already know and help you directly apply theoretical concepts to what you're already doing.
Wow, this is pathetic.
Try taking out all the things you think I said and read the things I did say.
Here, I'll even quote myself for you to help you out.
and
Note that I did not exclude playing or listening to the twit or anyone else that has an education with instinct or ability.
Get it yet?
Keep trying!
Joe.
I think the problem is that you don't really have a good grasp of my argument. If we are talking about being an advanced musician, we are talking about someone who is equipped to apply their playing to any situation with the minimal amount of struggle. The advanced musician by comparison is the person that can analyse and apply their knowledge and ability independently to whatever situation they are in compared to the person who can play well but doesn't really know how to apply their playing based on their lack of theoretical knowledge.
The advanced player is the one with fewer limitations. There is little argument to be made that not understanding relative theory is an advantage. The only way you can argue that point is to claim that theoretical knowledge is a limitation. Which I would once again respond that only those who lack a good understanding of theory would make that claim.
The advanced player is the one with fewer limitations. There is little argument to be made that not understanding relative theory is an advantage. The only way you can argue that point is to claim that theoretical knowledge is a limitation. Which I would once again respond that only those who lack a good understanding of theory would make that claim.
Ah...but I am not making that claim.
What I am saying is that theoretical knowledge by itself does not a musician make.
Theoretical knowledge is very good. I wish I had more of it and am working on getting it.
By itself, just for it's own sake, it is worthless. There is so much involved in being able to play well that theoretical knowledge is on the list of things needed to play well. Not the only item.
Seriously...is my point getting clearer?
Joe.
Ah...but I am not making that claim.
What I am saying is that theoretical knowledge by itself does not a musician make.
Theoretical knowledge is very good. I wish I had more of it and am working on getting it.
By itself, just for it's own sake, it is worthless. There is so much involved in being able to play well that theoretical knowledge is on the list of things needed to play well. Not the only item.
Seriously...is my point getting clearer?
Joe.
Actually, the point you were making was that it's better to have nice feel than to have theory and no feel. Whether that was your intention or not I don't know. This is a matter of playing and how you as a player are able to cope and respond to the music you are involved with. The perception of the listener is irrelevant to this.
No-one was saying that theory alone made someone an advanced player. What I was saying was that you can't really consider yourself an advanced player when you compare yourself to someone who does have a good concept of theory and good technique and you are limited in that respect.
Limited? In some respects, of course.
Can't be an advanced player? That's just narrow minded.
I guess we just have to disagree.
Joe.
Limited? In some respects, of course.
Can't be an advanced player? That's just narrow minded.
I guess we just have to disagree.
Joe.
Ok so in the interest of open-mindedness, let us all declare that anyone that can "wild thing" is an advanced bass player. Also forget all that theory stuff, if you are called in to do a session that requires an "advanced bass player", and the client needs you to play to a chord progression but you can't follow it, it's ok you are still an advanced player, the client is just narrow minded.
There you go putting words in my mouth again. (Or maybe just being obtuse?)
:scowl:
(sigh)
Joe.
