Being Judged

[Slaphound]

In my experience, throwing stuff back in people's faces never has desirable results. Just adds fuel to the fire. Being clear, direct, and expressing how you feel goes a lot further. Sounds like you also feel some of what he's saying might be valid. If so, then it might actually work best to agree and say you're working on it.

What, specifically, are his criticisms? It might help us to tell whether its somwwhat legit stuff or if hes just simply (which he might very well be) an annoying asshat.

I think most of what bothers me starts with ME. I might suffer from Low self esteem and I revere him as a musician wayyyyy too much. That is the crux of it mostly. His criticism is not constructive or its not put forth as such and that creates a defense mechanism in my mind also. And in the end, I may just have a hard time taking lessons on bass playing from a drummer.

I'd like to celebrate Talkbass for giving me a forum to air my thoughts on. Thanks to you guys for giving me your attention and helping me weed through this. I feel a lot better and now I just need to see what I'm gonna do next to address this issue. But at least now I am rid of my anger and confusion.

 

[briand]

I used to occasionally get that sort of "advice" from a drummer in our college-aged garage band...

I'd usually nod, and then say, "Let's do Wipeout again!" -- after that, he'd be too tired to say much.

 

[lfmn16]

In my experience, throwing stuff back in people's faces never has desirable results. Just adds fuel to the fire. Being clear, direct, and expressing how you feel goes a lot further.

+1

I'll never understand 2 things (at least)- 1) Why some people think that if someone else is being a dick, it's OK if they are too. 2) Why people don't just discuss the issue with the person they have a problem with, i.e. - I appreciate your feedback, but when you say XXX, it makes me feel like YYY. I would appreciate if you could ZZZ. If they ignore your request, then get rid of them. I don't care how good someone is and how bad you are, there is no excuse for acting like a dick.

 

[Muttleybass]

I think most of what bothers me starts with ME. I might suffer from Low self esteem and I revere him as a musician wayyyyy too much.

Well, the drummer hasn't left the band yet, so you can't be THAT bad. And if he was what you think he is, he'd probably be looking for better players.

A big part of any band is "fit". Personalities are as important as ability and style. I've played in different bands where my style wasn't quite right and it was a dent in my self esteem. Don't let that get you down.

Basically, IMO, there's two ways you can go... You can put your ego aside, run what he says thru your brain and take it for what it's worth, and blow it off if you know he's wrong. (IE: grow a thicker skin and quit worrying)

OR, you can do what Staindbass said.

Once I gave up caring what other people thought I felt a LOT better.
Either way, if he quits, you weren't happy with him anyway.

 

[craig.p]

I remember way back in the mid '70s I was with a Top 40 band. This was a few years after I'd started playing bass, and I was just getting to the point where I could make money at it. At a rehearsal, we stopped in the middle of one song, and the drummer told me how the bass line ought to go. I yelled at him to quit coaching me, that what I was doing was working fine.

Well, a while later, and another drummer later, after I'd developed a better ear for how bass parts should go, I realized the guy had been right, and I'd been playing the part wrong (or at least in a less-than-optimal fashion in terms of syncopation).

So, turns out the guy had only been trying to help me, because his ear had been better trained than mine at the time. He'd been able to hear things on the vinyl that had escaped my ear.

Weird thing was, although his meter was okay on the drums, he was weak, so maybe that biased me against the advice he was offering.

There's a bit of Catch 22 when someone gives someone advice: If the person getting the advice needs it in the first place, he may not be at the level yet where he's able to judge its validity -- especially when the source is NOT an old pro who's been around the block a few times. That can often take years.

 

[collins81]

Is it because you're a JETS fan?

 

[1958Bassman]

How many of you have felt like your being judged by others in a band your in? I've got a drummer who is constantly passing judgment on my playing style and my tone. Different things. I started this blues band a few months ago and I'm starting to think that I picked the wrong guy. He's got about 30 years of playing experience over me but I think that he has been getting a little too expressive. Anyone else deal with a moron like this?

Does he make generalized comments, or is he specific about the sound and style? If he's generalizing, ask him to be more specific and maybe ask if he can think of a better way to communicate his thoughts.

Otherwise, you can always look for his annoyance threshold by asking "What do you mean?" after every comment.

 

[jive1]

On the flipside, you can have guys who never criticize any of your playing at all because in the long run, they don't give a crap.

Say you're all in a helicopter. Say the helicopter is headed straight into a mountain. You could have a bunch of guys who give a crap try to steer the helicopter so it won't crash into the mountain, or you can have a bunch of guys with who will just grab a parachute, jump out and let the helicopter crash.

IMO, it comes down to investment in the band. If people are invested and give criticism, thats one thing. Those folks will help to move things forward. On the other hand, if they aren't invested, then it's usually something personal to them, and it's not helpful at all. IME, people won't care about what you say unless they know you care.

So the question to the OP is does this guy actually give a crap?

 

[Slaphound]

So the question to the OP is does this guy actually give a crap?

No. I don't believe he does care. I know that I care.

Look, it was my band to start with and I'm not trying to sound like, "It's my band. Do every thing I say or I'll kick you out!!!!" But this is a project that I wanted to build and I did the recruiting. Everything has been very hands off for the most part.

But I know when someone doesn't care as much as myself. So it is what it is. We will put on good faces, we will play the way its been and entertain our fans.

 

[jive1]

No. I don't believe he does care. I know that I care.

Look, it was my band to start with and I'm not trying to sound like, "It's my band. Do every thing I say or I'll kick you out!!!!" But this is a project that I wanted to build and I did the recruiting. Everything has been very hands off for the most part.

But I know when someone doesn't care as much as myself. So it is what it is. We will put on good faces, we will play the way its been and entertain our fans.

At this point, I would just treat the guy as a hired gun, and look for a replacement. If he says anything, brush it off, and do your best for your shows. Once you find your replacement, just tell him that based on his comments that you don't think it's a good fit and wish him well on finding something more to his liking.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Why wouldn't we be judged by the people we play with? The first few times I jam with someone, I'm making a judgment call as to whether or not I want to continue to play with them. Likewise, they're making the same judgment about me.

If someone I'm in a band or project with is offering me judgments about my playing, the first thing I need to do is figure out whether or not these judgments are merited. If I'm offended at their judgments, it's probably because, A) I know they're right and I don't want to admit it, or B) They're judgments are innacurate.

I had a band situation where the drummer stepped all over everyone and had absolutely no sense of control. He would double-bass till the cows came home, drown everyone out, beat the crap out of his kit, etc. I assumed that this was because he was very young, and had yet to develop a sense of dynamics. I politely mentioned that perhaps he should lighten up in certain parts, because he was drowning people out. he wouldn't listen, so I finally decided that I could no longer be in the band if he was in it. I left.

After playing with other young players (I'm 42) I started to get the feeling that MOST OF THEM lacked judgment. They had technical ability, but aesthetic judgment seemed to be completely absent. More than probably, this is due to being raised in a relativist culture and a school-system that gives gold stars to everyone for just showing up. Such a culture naturally erodes the ability to take constructive criticism.

There is no human existence without judgment. The feel-good, judgment-free world of psychologists is an illusion. A lot of times, we need to grow up and give a listen to the people around us so that we can develop our OWN sense of judgment and see whether or not their criticisms have any merit.

Most of the time, when I hear someone complain about being judged and I talk to them about it, it turns out that the person is just whining.

I don't know. While there are a lot of younger players with chops who lack taste, I think there's a lot of conjecture on your part about why that is.

More on topic, there's a right way to give criticism and a wrong way. The people in my band can offer constructive criticism without being asshats about it. Some people just come off as douchebags when they criticize someone else. Sometimes criticism is valid; other times, it's just somebody's bias coming in. For instance, some people have an idea of what a bass guitar should sound like. If they came up before the time of high-frequency horns in bass cabs and active basses, they may not like the sound of a modern bass with ziny roundwounds. I have my own biases too. We all do.

 

[mellowinman]

The only thing I have ever criticized anyone for is landing out of time; playing bad notes; not getting an important "key part" of the song, or singing badly.

I have not done much with criticizing tone.

If you had bad tone, you wouldn't have passed the audition.

But ultimately, I won't criticize a bad musician, or an incompetent player.

I would part company with them.

So if I'm taking the time to offer suggestions, that means I think you're really GOOD.

 

[Session1969]

Playing with cats who have thirty years on you or anyone can be very difficult. H

 

[niels125]

I don't mind if someone says "I think it's played like that" or "maybe you should do this", but I wouldn't want to play in a band where bandmembers would judge my every move and note played.

The stress and tension would only cause me to make more mistakes and suck the joy out of being in a band for me

 

[cnltb]

How many of you have felt like your being judged by others in a band your in? I've got a drummer who is constantly passing judgment on my playing style and my tone. Different things. I started this blues band a few months ago and I'm starting to think that I picked the wrong guy. He's got about 30 years of playing experience over me but I think that he has been getting a little too expressive. Anyone else deal with a moron like this?

Morons like who?
From your post I am not in the least convinced the drummer is a moron.
It might just as well be, that you don't take criticism well,constructive or otherwise.
Maybe"your" drummer has a point?