Bergantino Forté HP2X

[gtirard]

Forté HP Ultra Bass Amplifier

The Bergantino Forté HP Ultra Bass Amplifier is a hyper powered lightweight bass amp featuring cutting edge 2000 watts of power and re-imagined firmware and a custom-designed output transformer.

bergantino.com

 

[6thplanet]

Looks like another top shelf piece! Lots of neat features.

 

[gtirard]

It’s no secret since the beginning of amplification, transformers were, and still are to this day, credited with what is often associate with that “Tube” sound. In fact, in many audio circles, transformers are often given much of the credit for those harmonically rich tones we so revere! So what does a transformer do? Because transformers are not perfect devices, they have a very unique and subtle way of distorting and adding desirable harmonic content to the final tone we hear. The added texture and presence associated with them are often credited with the “glue” or warmth of the amplifiers and recording gear they inhabit.

​

These added harmonics add a very desirable excitement, low end fill, and cut-thru clarity to the system they are utilized in by adding harmonic content to the original signal not otherwise present; similar to what a slightly overdriven tube does, but lower in frequency. Another quality (or shortcoming ;-})of transformers is hysteresis. This memory effect that delays the changing of polarity of the transformer core, and thus signal passing thru them, also helps create even more of those desirable harmonics we enjoy. So is it any wonder we couldn’t help but want to add this harmonically rich texture to our best selling amp, the forte’ HP2, now our forte’ HP2X ?

I'd love to see a A/B test of the HP 2 VS the HP 2X, so see if I'm able to hear the difference.

We talk a lot of the "transform's magic", it would be very informative to hear exactly the same bass line played with the same amp, same settings, with and without a transformer — everything else being equal.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

I've always been of the opinion that tube gear without transformers don't really deliver my (totally flawed) idea of "the tube tone", whereas some transformer equipped gear without tubes will certainly deliver "THAT" tone (for example, classic Neve or EMI TG micpres).

I say "flawed" because it's obviously not "the tube tone", when it doesn't have tubes in it. I guess it's about harmonic distortion and a certain "heft" that good quality, proper tube gear with transformers, and SOME transformer equipped gear without tubes, can deliver. I have yet to experience THAT tone/feel from any gear without transformers (including "toob" gear without transformers).

But I still don't want this amp. At all.

At this point I should probably mention that I love Bergantino's cabs. In fact, they're my favorite cabs of all time. My search for the perfect cab ended with Bergantino. But their amps... Just not my thing I'm afraid.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure this new amp will sound great, maybe even amazing! Bergantino make great products. But it's still not for me. If I want "the tube tone" I wouldn't start looking for it in an amp with bluetooth, USB-ports and firmware updates... Not to mention that once you start talking about firmware updates you're looking at a product that WILL become obsolete long before a real, classic tube amp. I mean, my main amps that I've used extensively for touring, were made in the mid-70s. I've also got amps from the 60s that are in regular use in my studio. They've needed a couple of minor repairs over the years, but they're still good as new and will most likely outlive me (now that's a depressing thought!!!). I honestly can't see the same scenario for ANY products where "firmware update" is part of the picture...

I'm not even sure what we're looking at, from a technical perspective with these Forte amps. Is it digital modelling of something else? Bergantino always seems to be very vague in their marketing of their amps. They throw around a lot of buzz words an buzz phrases, like their "Big Fat Tube"-circuitry (with no tubes in sight of course...). If their tube amp simulation (digital or not) is as good as their marketing claims, why would they need to add a transformer? I mean, they literally claim to have NAILED the tone+feel of a real tube amp in the NON-transformer version of the Forte. At that point adding a transformer seem more like a gimmick (as well as a way to raise the price of course).

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a great sounding amp. It just rubs me the wrong way when manufacturers of digital modelling and/or Class D amps make claims about NAILING the tone/feel of "the real thing" and then release an even more expensive model with maybe an added preamp tube, or in this case a transformer, to nail it EVEN BETTER!

 

[deff]

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a great sounding amp. It just rubs me the wrong way when manufacturers of digital modelling and/or Class D amps make claims about NAILING the tone/feel of "the real thing" and then release an even more expensive model with maybe an added preamp tube, or in this case a transformer, to nail it EVEN BETTER!

This is a problem with any amp manufacturer and releasing a new or improved amp. The designer comes up with another iteration that they think adds a feature or condition that wasn't present in the previous iteration. This is literally every amp manufacturer. You have an issue with improvements? I honestly think there are so many great sounding amps right now. The majority of amps out now sound way better than what you could get in the 80's. They have way more features and things that are actually helpful. The only reason they say things like "nailing the real thing" tone is because people like you are nostalgic or sentimental about the amps of yesterday.

 

[AlexMG]

Marketing. Marketing. Market…

If tennis racquets actually produced 30% more spin every update of a model as marketed they’d currently have 15,000,000 rpm and it’d be another sport entirely played with slingshots.

Yet, I still fall for it as well.

 

[WG Plum]

I don't think Bergantino would offer all the bells and whistles if there wasn't some sort of demand for them. That said, as much as I love my Forte HP, I don't need the majority of the things it makes available. I would love to have an HP without the drive circuit, the pass filters, etc, and I certainly don't need bluetooth etc. An HP with a transformer would be excellent, but because there are all these other things I already don't use, I'll pass. Call me (m)old school, but I just want an amp, a box that makes things louder and gooder (minimal but powerful EQ), without a bunch of other stuff. I have my pedal board for the majority of my tone sweetening. My cab search has also ended with my NXT212.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

This is a problem with any amp manufacturer and releasing a new or improved amp. The designer comes up with another iteration that they think adds a feature or condition that wasn't present in the previous iteration. This is literally every amp manufacturer. You have an issue with improvements? I honestly think there are so many great sounding amps right now. The majority of amps out now sound way better than what you could get in the 80's. They have way more features and things that are actually helpful. The only reason they say things like "nailing the real thing" tone is because people like you are nostalgic or sentimental about the amps of yesterday.

I don't have any issues with improvement, but I think I have a very different definition of the word than you, at least when it comes to bass amps. Except for size/weight and huge wattage ratings (that most players won't ever need) I don't really see much improvement in modern amps compared to the best tube amps from the 60s/70s. Certainly not tonally, although the "best" tone will always be highly subjective of course. And as far as long term reliability goes, my tube amps from the 60s/70s are still going strong. Do you think a product with features like usb-ports and firmware updates will be fully functional in 50-60 years?

Maybe I'm a bit nostalgic, but I'm actually not old enough to have experienced the golden age of tube amps. When I started playing bass it was all about solid state amps. The first time I played a real tube amp (back when nobody wanted them) was a revelation. I never looked back.

The most important thing to me will always be the tone. I think my Bergantino cab is ugly as sin, and the 2x12 format isn't very conventient when combined with a large tube amp on stage. But it is the best sounding cab I have ever played, so I stick with it. Speakers/cabs is an area where there HAVE been huge, objective improvements since the 60s/70s or even since the 80s. But amps? I honestly don't think any Class D amp I've played have matched the tone and, perhaps more importantly, the dynamics and "feel" of a good all-tube amp. Trust me, if I could get the tone/feel of my DR201 in a smaller/lighter format I would be all over it. I don't particularly enjoy dragging that beast around. But so far I've been very disappointed with MOST Class D amps I've played. SOME have been objectively very good amps, but even the good ones don't sound/feel quite as nice to me as the best, classic tube amps from 5-6 decades ago. But stuff like this will always be a matter of personal taste of course.

I agree with you that most amps today are definitely better than most amps from the 80s. But good tube amps form the 60s/70s vs modern Class D amps... I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

And just to be clear, I'm not some kind of anti-digital luddite. I use digital audio equipment all the time, mainly in my studio. But I don't want any digital stuff or USB-ports or other things that get obsolete or break easiliy inside my AMPS. I prefer to keep equipment like that modular, which means that if my audio interface or my DI-box, or my speaker-sim breaks down, it doesn't mean that my ENTIRE AMP needs to be sent off for a repair (or in the case of many modern amps when the warranty has run out: buy a new amp because the product is no longer supported...).

 

[gtirard]

@Deleted member 271037 How many class D amps did you try before you came to the conclusion that no class D amp will ever get you the tone you're looking for?

Did you try hybrid amps? TT800 or WD800? Jad Freer Sisma? It's a hybrid amp with a class G power section, not D, so maybe you could try that just in case?

Did you try modern tube amps that weight between 10 and 15 kg?

Would you be interested in the Berg if it had no DSP and USB port?

You love your Hiwatt and modern amps are not for you - fine! Where's the problem?

 

[msb]

Jim has always been one to improve his designs.
And I doubt that is about to change.

 

[sears]

a box that makes things louder and gooder (minimal but powerful EQ), without a bunch of other stuff. I have my pedal board for the majority of my tone sweetening.

This is my stance, and although I lust after the HP2x, I might give the Markbass Ninja a try.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

I don't have any issues with improvement, but I think I have a very different definition of the word than you, at least when it comes to bass amps. Except for size/weight and huge wattage ratings (that most players won't ever need) I don't really see much improvement in modern amps compared to the best tube amps from the 60s/70s. Certainly not tonally, although the "best" tone will always be highly subjective of course. And as far as long term reliability goes, my tube amps from the 60s/70s are still going strong. Do you think a product with features like usb-ports and firmware updates will be fully functional in 50-60 years?

Maybe I'm a bit nostalgic, but I'm actually not old enough to have experienced the golden age of tube amps. When I started playing bass it was all about solid state amps. The first time I played a real tube amp (back when nobody wanted them) was a revelation. I never looked back.

The most important thing to me will always be the tone. I think my Bergantino cab is ugly as sin, and the 2x12 format isn't very conventient when combined with a large tube amp on stage. But it is the best sounding cab I have ever played, so I stick with it. Speakers/cabs is an area where there HAVE been huge, objective improvements since the 60s/70s or even since the 80s. But amps? I honestly don't think any Class D amp I've played have matched the tone and, perhaps more importantly, the dynamics and "feel" of a good all-tube amp. Trust me, if I could get the tone/feel of my DR201 in a smaller/lighter format I would be all over it. I don't particularly enjoy dragging that beast around. But so far I've been very disappointed with MOST Class D amps I've played. SOME have been objectively very good amps, but even the good ones don't sound/feel quite as nice to me as the best, classic tube amps from 5-6 decades ago. But stuff like this will always be a matter of personal taste of course.

I agree with you that most amps today are definitely better than most amps from the 80s. But good tube amps form the 60s/70s vs modern Class D amps... I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

And just to be clear, I'm not some kind of anti-digital luddite. I use digital audio equipment all the time, mainly in my studio. But I don't want any digital stuff or USB-ports or other things that get obsolete or break easiliy inside my AMPS. I prefer to keep equipment like that modular, which means that if my audio interface or my DI-box, or my speaker-sim breaks down, it doesn't mean that my ENTIRE AMP needs to be sent off for a repair (or in the case of many modern amps when the warranty has run out: buy a new amp because the product is no longer supported...).

I appreciate your thoughts regarding what you look for and enjoy in an amp. I’m also happy to hear you’re enjoying one of our 212 cabs, despite its ugly looks! ;-). But regarding the technology of our amps, including the USB port, one of our artist, Jeff Matz (High on Fire), who also uses HiWatt, took and used our HP on his recent European tour. Before leaving he asked me if there was a way to drive an additional PA amp with it so he could drive another cab on the opposite side of the stage for his guitar player. I emailed him a firmware update he loaded into his amp via the “obsolete “ USB port and reconfigured his amp turning the tuner out into a line out controlled by the HPs master volume. Problem solved. No soldering iron needed. I have no doubt your $4000, 65lb. HiWatt sounds great. But I, and every other bass amp company would be out of business if we depended solely on that market for survival.
Futhermore, I have gotten many emails from players with 30+ years playing experience sharing that our HP and forte’D amps are the best amps they’ve ever played thru. And I’m sure they’ve played a few all tube amps in their day. My point is, just like with food, everyone has different “taste” buds! Not to mention not everyone can afford a $4000 amp or care to carry one that’s 65lbs. Again happy it works for you and you’re getting total enjoyment and satisfaction from it. But everyone, as I mentioned, has different taste, budgets, and ergonomic requirements and constraints. Not to mention there’s a lot of cool things you can do in the digital world you can’t do in the analog world. Doesn’t mean one technology is right and the other wrong. They’re just different and meant to appeal to different customers. .

 

[Clark Westfield]

I’ve used and played through a variety of amps and my HP2 is just simply amazing.

Once I found the firmware I liked(OD/BDT) I have yet to pull the usb dust cap off.

Sounds great and just simply works and works hard.

Looking forward to many gigs sounding great without breaking my back.

My band mates noticed immediately how good the tone is and will always be.

Good work Jim

 

[Obese Chess]

I don't think Bergantino would offer all the bells and whistles if there wasn't some sort of demand for them. That said, as much as I love my Forte HP, I don't need the majority of the things it makes available. I would love to have an HP without the drive circuit, the pass filters, etc, and I certainly don't need bluetooth etc. An HP with a transformer would be excellent, but because there are all these other things I already don't use, I'll pass. Call me (m)old school, but I just want an amp, a box that makes things louder and gooder (minimal but powerful EQ), without a bunch of other stuff. I have my pedal board for the majority of my tone sweetening. My cab search has also ended with my NXT212.

I agree - my compressor, drive, and pass filters already exist on my pedalboard, and I have them laid out before they get to the amp for a reason. That said, stuff like Jim mentioned above re the USB drive for cabinet profiles, custom firmware, etc, all make sense to me, but I can't see myself buying an amp with so much of the other stuff baked in (Drive circuits, for example) and I'm a little bummed that those are getting harder and harder to find.

I also agree that the NXT212 is the best sounding cabinet I've ever played through by a wide margin.

 

[sprag]

I'd love to see a A/B test of the HP 2 VS the HP 2X, so see if I'm able to hear the difference.

We talk a lot of the "transform's magic", it would be very informative to hear exactly the same bass line played with the same amp, same settings, with and without a transformer — everything else being equal.

I'm just looking forward to reading a few posts from TBers doing the above AB test and sharing their thoughts

 

[gtirard]

I'm just looking forward to reading a few posts from TBers doing the above AB test and sharing their thoughts

Yes. Or even better - looking forward reading a few posts that include A/B test vids or Soundcloud files.

When it comes to "tube/transformer magic", there's a big part of fairy dust that you can feel when you play (for example the feeling that the amp responds better to your touch, that your fingers are directly connected to the notes) but you won't hear when you record. That feeling can be described with great emphasis, but at the end of the day we make music for people. I'm not criticizing anything, it's good to play with that feeling even if it's too subtle for the audience to make the difference, but I would prefer to have both the description and the audio file to understand fully.

The video demo of the HP2X sounds amazing, but like always there's a great player with a great instrument etc, maybe it could sound just as good without the new transformer, who knows?

 

[kevk]

I'm just looking forward to reading a few posts from TBers doing the above AB test and sharing their thoughts

Had an opportunity to a/b HP2~HP2X (proto) awhile back…shared my recollection in the main Berg thread…
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/club-bergantino-lets-see-those-rigs.331615/page-1008#post-28660583
Bottomline, the difference was noticeable to my ears—preferred the additional harmonic fullness/richness in the HP2X.

No clips for you, but not sure how much would translate into any a/b recording (and still getting my new home recording setup assembled, as time/budget permit) Some of the difference was how excited, or dynamically present notes sounded/reacted to my playing.

 

[ShadowGroover]

If it's the Optimus Prime version of the HP2, that would work for me

 

[gtirard]

Had an opportunity to a/b HP2~HP2X (proto) awhile back…shared my recollection in the main Berg thread…
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/club-bergantino-lets-see-those-rigs.331615/page-1008#post-28660583
Bottomline, the difference was noticeable to my ears—preferred the additional harmonic fullness/richness in the HP2X.

No clips for you, but not sure how much would translate into any a/b recording (and still getting my new home recording setup assembled, as time/budget permit) Some of the difference was how excited, or dynamically present notes sounded/reacted to my playing.

This answer very well to my question just above. I think it corresponds to my experience when I play with Jule Monique and a few other tube amps or preamps: something I can feel and enjoy when I'm playing, but not really identify in a blind test or A/B recording.

@Wasnex, @agedhorse how would you explain this? Is it "psycho accoustics", does it mean we listen with our eyes, or is it something else?

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Just to quickly comment here. Transformers all have an inherent imperfection in them such that the lower in frequency you go, the more harmonic distortion they produce. It’s just the physics of it. How much power it takes and the level of harmonics they produce depends on many factors in the construction of the transformer. And these harmonics are real. You can see them on an FFT analyzer. The overall effect one hears would not be the equivalent of, for example, engaging a fuzz pedal. It’s a much more subtle effect, but still very real. It doesn’t change the level of the signal (I.e. it’s not the same as boosting a bass eq)but rather adds texture and presence to the signal by introducing harmonics of the root note that weren’t there naturally. They also exhibit various levels of hysteresis which adds some subtle harmonics in of itself from this aspect of transformer behavior. There’s a reason a lot of studio engineers will run their final digital mixes thru analog gear such as compressors with transformers in them, often times without even engaging the compressors themselves. It’s just to get what they refer to as adding the “glue” to the final mix. So there is no black magic here, no pixie dust, just some added harmonic enrichment to the signal itself to add some excitement and presence to your tone. That’s it!
We didn’t invent any new technology, but rather utilized existing technology in such a way as to give our HP2X the added texture and harmonic enrichment transformers are known for. We worked with Cinemag to design a transformer that would work in our current design and yield the harmonic spectrum we were striving for. Hope this helps everyone better understand the thought process behind the design and why we did it. It was an exercise in good old fashion engineering, not black magic or snake oil!;-)