• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Best Cable for the Amplified Double Bass

#41
drurb said:
Actually, that's not what happened at all. What Julian missed was "Otala distortion," now known as transient intermodulation distortion or TIM. It is easily measurable. Had anyone done the objective discrimination experiments, it would have been straightforward to determine that people could, in fact, reliably detect it. Pointing out a failure of decades old theoretical knowledge is not an argument or excuse for throwing up one's hands and saying that science is just unreliable.
Click to expand...

I'm curious about the history of TIM. Here's a manual for a Heathkit tube power amp from the 1950's.

Invalid Link Removed

It includes a brief discussion of TIM, and includes measurement data.

It's possible that TIM reared its ugly head in the 70's because many early solid state amps had high open loop gain and limited slew rate. However, slewing induced distortion wasn't unknown to the engineering community at the time.

I wonder how audible it really is under normal listening conditions. Music has a 1/f (or some decaying) frequency distribution, thus it seems likely to me that "normal" audio program may be well within the power bandwidth of amplifiers that show poor TIM results on the bench.
 
#42
I carry two Monster cables with my W. Woods. One is 12 feet long, and one 8 feet. I believe they are the same grade. The 12 foot one sounds noticeably clearer than the 8 footer. I have no explanation. My head tells me to use the 8 footer but my ears make me always use the 12 foot one. I'm sure I couldn't tell when playing with a drummer and band, but just solo, there is a definite difference.

Steven
 
#43
fdeck said:
I'm curious about the history of TIM. Here's a manual for a Heathkit tube power amp from the 1950's.
Click to expand...

Memory lane. :D In the early 90's I bought one (1):(( of these things at a yard sale for under $10, complete with a good pair of Genelux Gold Lion KT66's. After a brief inspection, I brought it up on my variac and it didn't blow up so I hooked it up. Although I only had one channel going, it was a really nice amp. I think I flipped it for about $200.
At the time I had an original but recapped Dynaco ST-70 that was also a sweet sounding amp. I have always preferred the sound of tubes to solid state. Low power single ended triodes into a pair of Klipsh horns can get one really close to the music, although with distortion nearing 10% they shouldn't sound good but they really can. Now I use a Grommes EL84/6BQ5 integrated (pulled from a 60's hifi console for $20) that only puts out 10W per into some old British monitors rated at 92db. It shouldn't work but in my small room, it's divine. I would have never considered anything like this by figuring it out on paper but my ears like it.:D

Thanks for the memories. Now, back to our regularly scheduled random and often interrupted programming.
 
#44
I don't know if this came up, but with a passive transducer, the shorter your length of cable before pre-amplification, the less degradation of the signal. If you have a high-impedance-input pre-amp right on the bass, you don't have to worry much about losing sound quality between the preamp and the amp. The pre-amped, low-impedance output signal can power right through whatever decent gauge wire it's fed into.

All you need to worry about is that it's a good quality one (TB's own Fdeck's HPF-Pre would fit the bill perfectly), and just use a good quality short cable to get the pickup's signal fed into it.

Don't forget: the pickup manufacturer selects what they think is appropriate wire to join pickup to its output jack; and the amp maker picks what they judge to be appropriate wire to join different components within the amp. You can bet that neither of them buy their wire from Monster or Mogami!

Do you sweat the XLR cable that your amp feeds the P.A. with? Nope; that's a pre-amped, low-impedance signal, and it can fend for itself without coddling.
 
#45
clink said:
Memory lane. :D In the early 90's I bought one (1):(( of these things at a yard sale for under $10, complete with a good pair of Genelux Gold Lion KT66's. After a brief inspection, I brought it up on my variac and it didn't blow up so I hooked it up. Although I only had one channel going, it was a really nice amp. I think I flipped it for about $200.
At the time I had an original but recapped Dynaco ST-70 that was also a sweet sounding amp. I have always preferred the sound of tubes to solid state. Low power single ended triodes into a pair of Klipsh horns can get one really close to the music, although with distortion nearing 10% they shouldn't sound good but they really can. Now I use a Grommes EL84/6BQ5 integrated (pulled from a 60's hifi console for $20) that only puts out 10W per into some old British monitors rated at 92db. It shouldn't work but in my small room, it's divine. I would have never considered anything like this by figuring it out on paper but my ears like it.:D

Thanks for the memories. Now, back to our regularly scheduled random and often interrupted programming.
Click to expand...

After my parents got married and finished school, they moved to the city where I grew up. They built a Heathkit hi-fi based on the W-5M, the accompanying preamp, and a big speaker that had a 15" woofer and 8" midrange. According to the story, they worked on it together at the kitchen table. Awww...

Sadly, I think it's gone. It was replaced by a solid state stereo when they decided to upgrade the turntable.
 
#46
Gotta have the 'latest and greatest. lol. Face it, who wants two space heaters raising the room temp by ten degrees in the summer months........

Sadly, most of that stuff got thrown in the landfill and is gone forever, along with much of the transistor stuff that replaced it.
 
#47
I was into building speakers when I was a kid. At 15 I built an Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater. (my first project) By the time I was a senior in high school I built a transmission line sub and 2 smaller satellites with Kef drivers. (a la Fried)A friend of mine and I would go to closing drive in theaters and buy their humongous tube amplifiers. He would rebuild them and they were actually very high power with KT88's and the biggest transformers you've ever seen. Sounded better than the rebuilt McIntosh tube amps we had. I couldn't afford an Acoustic 360 so I built a folded horn cab that I put a Cerwin Vega 18 in. I then finished the outside with tufted Naugahide ( a la Plush amps ) Ah the good old days.
 
#48
It's still the good old days for me. One of my systems is a Bell2200C (push-pull 6L6s into a cathode-feedback xformer) driving a 1952 Tannoy Silver Monitor. Check out Link Removed on eBay.

fdeck said:
I'm curious about the history of TIM. Here's a manual for a Heathkit tube power amp from the 1950's.

Invalid Link Removed

It includes a brief discussion of TIM, and includes measurement data.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that manual. I see where it discusses IM distortion and transient response. I couldn't find any mention of TIM. TIM was formally identified and described in the early 70's. What also plagued early transistor amps was crossover or "notch" distortion.
 
#51
pbasswil said:
I don't know if this came up, but with a passive transducer, the shorter your length of cable before pre-amplification, the less degradation of the signal. If you have a high-impedance-input pre-amp right on the bass, you don't have to worry much about losing sound quality between the preamp and the amp. The pre-amped, low-impedance output signal can power right through whatever decent gauge wire it's fed into.

All you need to worry about is that it's a good quality one (TB's own Fdeck's HPF-Pre would fit the bill perfectly), and just use a good quality short cable to get the pickup's signal fed into it.

Don't forget: the pickup manufacturer selects what they think is appropriate wire to join pickup to its output jack; and the amp maker picks what they judge to be appropriate wire to join different components within the amp. You can bet that neither of them buy their wire from Monster or Mogami!

Do you sweat the XLR cable that your amp feeds the P.A. with? Nope; that's a pre-amped, low-impedance signal, and it can fend for itself without coddling.
Click to expand...


pbasswil: A dose of realism. Thanks.:)
 
#52
fdeck said:
It's possible that TIM reared its ugly head in the 70's because many early solid state amps had high open loop gain and limited slew rate.
Click to expand...

You're right, as usual! :) See [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]under "further developments."

Also, you and others who are interested might like this and, in particular, Invalid Link Removed.

Sorry for the OT, back to cables... :)
 
#58
ok for all you trolls, why not go monster bass cable? It might cost a little more but it's warranted for life, if it ever goes you get a new one free! I tried several cabels and I like the monster bass, i here a difference, a little warmer sounding, and quiet shielded nicely. Other cabels I tried including different monster cabels sounded a little brighter harsher. :cool:
 
#59
Eric Hochberg said:
I got a much more open, transparent sound with tweed cables and naugahyde covered cabinets. Black seems to bring out more low end than red or white.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and those red cabs can feed back something fierce! One thing though, I started coloring the shell part of the plugs on my cables with a green flourescent highlighter. I only did it to identify them, but the first night out I noticed I suddenly had way richer low-mids!
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back