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Best DI to use for replicating effects from bass amp

B

Bileofwood

Feb 28, 2012
4
0
#1
Hi, probably a misleading title, but I'll do my best to be clear here.

I've been playing my active bass through a Blackstar HT DistX distortion pedal and going into my Marshall bass amp. Got the perfect tone and very happy with it. However, if I use the Line Out and record it sounds very different. This is to be expected, the properties of the speaker have a profound effect on the overall sound.

When I play live most (if not all) of the venues we play at have a PA where the bass is DI'ed into the mixing desk. At our last gig I walked onto the floor during sounf check and, as I expected, my tone coming through FOH was not that which I was getting from my amp on stage. In fact it was just muddy and unpleasant.

It seems clear to me that this is always going to be the case when the signal is going to be routed away from the speaker of the amp. So I need to combat this. What I want to do is get a setup where I know what is going to be coming out of the FOH speakers.

So, what I believe I need is a DI with a dual output, one to go to the mixing desk and one to go to my amp which I'll use as an onstage monitor (assuming I can't use the PA monitors). I can then work on getting my sound just right with that box using my PA system at home and at the practise rooms, confident that it will be replicated when going through the mixing desk and PA.

So far so simple eh?

I have tried an MXR M80, which on paper is fantastic, it even has a noisegate. However it didn't work, it seems to colour the sound with it's own pre amp and it clashed badly with my distortion pedal. From what I read it has similar properties to the Sansamp, which suggests that that would also be of no use. I have read the Avalon might be good but I don't have access to one and they're quite pricey, too much of a risky punt.

tl;dr Basically I am after a DI which as closely as possible replicates the sound I would get from a bass amp and the speaker from a bass amp when using the Direct Out to a mixing desk. Either that or or other suggestions as to how I can overcome what I describe above.

I have read a lot on these forums about DI boxes however nothing seems to go into my two specific points - how a DI reacts to a distortion pedal, and how I can dial in my specific sound to be replicated live.

Thanks in advance.
 
#4
+1 to the mic. If you can't afford a good mic or can't get 2 signals for FOH I would suggest taking a do before the effects only because it won't give you the sound you are after if you put effects in the di. No sense in giving a horrible sound to the audience. The true fans will be close to stage hearing your rig with the effects anyways.
 
#5
Bileofwood said:
... Basically I am after a DI which as closely as possible replicates the sound I would get from a bass amp and the speaker from a bass amp when using the Direct Out to a mixing desk. ...
Click to expand...

This is exactly what the SansAmp bass DI is for. It has a parallel out that sends your bass' signal to the bass amp, and an internal preamp/cab simulator that sends the simulated tone via XLR connection to the PA console.

Yes, the SansAmp does color your tone, just as the bass amp + bass cab + mic would. A lot of people find them love them, some people don't. Tone is subjective - try one and see if it works for you.
 
#6
Why not DI from your actual amp? That's the best compromise for me. Traditional "DI boxes" IME never sound that hot with any sort of FX, especially OD/distortion which is why I don't use them.

Also, if your Marshall is a tube setup, you can run a Radial JDI or Countryman 85 in-line between your amp and cabinet, which I've done before with good results.
 
#7
I've been down this road before...

Some things to try, in order of likely success:

a) Mic your cabinet! This will involve cooperation between you & the foh engineer, but is the ideal scenario (along with parallel use of a before-the-amp di in a perfect world).

b) Use a RedBox or similar di that taps the signal between head and cabinet. It will get very close to the tone you're hearing from your setup in the house. I was amazed at a Foo Fighters show years ago where they were doing this - killer tones!

c) Try the SansAmp. I don't personally like them, but lots of great bassists do! It sounds a lot different than the mxr.




( disclaimer: All of this assumes that your amp levels, pa support and tones chosen are all appropriate for the music and venue.)
 
#8
As stubborn as some engineers can be, if they present me with some external DI (often a bad one aswell) I just unplug it and stick the XLR in the back of my amp.

I usually get miked aswell, although it's the first thing to go when there's not enough channels available.

If you're using FX frequently, I really think you need to have that cab miked.

I've tried several things, but right now I'm happiest with bass -> FX -> amp (di) -> FOH and a cab mic channel going there aswell. I feel more in charge of the sound this way, hell I'd even set the DI to post EQ but I'll trust our sound engineers to take care of that ;)

All the effects I use are either blended with clean or used very little; I do believe retaining some clean signal is important for any bass to sound well, but thats just my opinion. When I record stuff I'll always have a clean DI, amp DI and Mic channel. Seems a lot to record 3 lines, but I've done more in the past ;) (different amps; a 15w Squier Frontman guitar amp fully cranked adds a really cool sound to a clean DI for example ;p)
 
#9
Hmmmm, as much as I like putting another effect box in the chain as much as the next man, I find it odd that no-one has mentioned the easiest and cheapest route.

Talk to the soundman.

He's there to make you sound good. Ask him to come up to the stage and say 'make me sound like this out there!'. Sure, he'll have many years of experience and will think he knows better ;) which is sometimes worth taking on board, but he won't know 'your sound'. If you don't tell him it sounds wrong, he won't know and just work to getting a generic bass tone that sits well in the mix.

All ususal rules of be nice, don't be rude or pee him off apply.

If you want to spend money on a solution, then I would say buy your own bass amp microphone, so you always have something that give as accurate representation of your sound, or perhaps a speaker simulator, like the palmer. Come to think of it, I believe there are even a few DI boxes with emulated cab outputs (even, dare I say it, one of the inexpensive Behringer offerings has an emulated 4x12)
 
#11
In my music career I have never been so disrespected as when I started playing bass about 10 years ago. Prior to that gig I was always the guitarist. It seems NO ONE gives a crap about bass. I don't understand this because I always valued and listened to bass in music.

I suggest the Sansamp RBI because it is the EASIEST way to get a workable front of house sound from any sound man.

1. They are well known products and Sound guys like what they know. I never get any negative feedback about using mine.

2. They are easy to use and not overly complicated.

3. You get a decent sound no matter how hard the soundman tries to make you suck. I cannot tell you how many bassists come up to me and compliment my sound/tone. My rig is just a Sansamp/QSC/Avatar cab. Nothing groundbreaking or special.

You will need to tweak the settings until you get what you like but they are in there if you look. IMO most other setups are a PIA because most sound guys do the equivalent of a LINE-CHECK when setting the mix for the bass guitar. I actually can "mix" a little with the Sansamp without any BS because most soundguys don't even "listen" to the bass. If it is THERE then that's enough. Can't tell you how many times I walked out front, heard the mix, then went back and boosted mids so I could be heardnot just felt.

It might seem like a "compromise" but to be honest I just got sick and tired of all the disrespect and wanted something that would be quick, easy, and reasonably good sounding, without any confrontation.
 
#12
Crater said:
This is exactly what the SansAmp bass DI is for. It has a parallel out that sends your bass' signal to the bass amp, and an internal preamp/cab simulator that sends the simulated tone via XLR connection to the PA console.

Yes, the SansAmp does color your tone, just as the bass amp + bass cab + mic would. A lot of people find them love them, some people don't. Tone is subjective - try one and see if it works for you.
Click to expand...
And with the Sansamp, take some time in advance to adjust the signal you send to the desk by running the affected out into a mixer, use the mixer headphone out with good phones -or- good neutral sounding monitor speakers to dial in the bass tone you like with the Sansamp.
 
#13
I understand exactly what you are after, and I'm pretty sure you are going to be best served by plopping a big old E/V RE20 mic on it. Most live sound guys (DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT BASHING THE SOUND MAN....MERELY STATING THE KNOWN!) are going to turn your sound into what they want to hear or feel mixes the best in the room and with the style of music being played. So no matter what you send him, only a truly gifted few FOH cats will ever make your bass sound out front like you hear it on stage. For better or worse. This is why they hand you a DI and want your signal without effects. In essence, they are kinda dissing your tone, kinda just not understanding that you mean for it to be a major component in your stage tone.

Having done both sides in this arena, I can tell you this much. Most players you run across don't have a very good sound in what is typically considered a "bass" sound (hey...80 % of drummers can't tune their drums either, not picking on bassists, same also applies to guitarists as well, there are lot of not great sounds out there).

I myself have a very aggressive tone that is part Ox and part Marcus Miller. I have found very few that give the audience what I am sending. So to try to minimize the frustration, I use a Line 6 Bass Pod Pro (the rack unit) and send a "Mark King" preset that honestly, kills out front. It cuts kind of like I want it, and it still sounds clean enough to just pass the signal on through. I can now hear the same punchy, bright, full and fat bottomed sound out front that I hear on stage. Is it the tone I'd like to use on stage, not exactly, but not totally far off.

In your case though, you are obviously running a pretty nice crunchy edge to your tone and as far as most sound dudes think that is too dirty a bass tone than they like or think it should be. They probably ask you to turn the highs down or might ask you "were you intending to have all that clanky distortion on?". If not on occasion, I would be surprised. I love the sound of the crash of the strings, the fret noise, all the aggression the instrument has to offer as well as the deep tones.

A mic will be the best manner in forcing the sound guys to run your real on stage preferred tone. It's what you hear on stage that is what you want to get to your listeners, that includes the amp and the speakers. Were I mixing I would have run the mic route. I usually only DI clean bass tones, which is the majority. But when a guy is really into the snack crackle and pop of his stage sound and I can't deliver that with a DI, I exit stage left for an old RE20.

Good luck in your search.
 
#14
A Palmer di would be a good choice. If your using a head and one cab use the spare speaker out put and plug the Di into that. It's speaker sim will give you a workable tone for live use. Also if your with a sound guy who is not very good at mic'ing a bass cab it will probably give you a better tone. Also taking the line frommtje spare speaker out means you have no load issues and so will not damage the di.
 
#16
Thanks all for the feedback, I've a lot of research to do based upon the above.

Really glad I posed my question here, I appreciate the responses a great deal.

I'll do some reading on the Palmer DI and the RE20 mic.

I have also been strongly recommended an Avalon U5 (someone here in Belfast has offered to let me try their's). However, the Ashdown Little Bastard amp has a DI XLR out on the back. Would that give a speaker simulation, like the Blackstar S1 amps do?
 
#17
The DI on the ashdown does not have a speaker sim on it. Myself I would get 2 di's one which is a pure clean tone straight from the bass then use a di with a speaker sim for the amp tone and effects then ask the foh guy to blend them. But your tone may not be the same out front at every gig as the sound guy does have to eq to the room.
 
#19
Bileofwood said:
I'll do some reading on the Palmer DI and the RE20 mic.

I have also been strongly recommended an Avalon U5 (someone here in Belfast has offered to let me try their's). However, the Ashdown Little Bastard amp has a DI XLR out on the back. Would that give a speaker simulation, like the Blackstar S1 amps do?
Click to expand...

Also check out the Heil PR40. It's cheaper than the RE20 but sounds great.

The U5 is a great DI, but it's a very clean sounding DI. Based on what you have said in the OP, I don't think that would be what you want. They ain't cheap either...

I would either mic the cab or use a DI in between the head and the cab. Those are probably the best options.
 

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