According to Line6, the latency in their wireless units is 3-4ms, and to be honest, I just don't notice it at all... I use an 18.5' cable at rehearsals, and wireless at gigs, and never notice any difference between the two...
- georgestrings
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Best digital wireless- Line 6, Sony, AT, ???
- Thread starter steve_rolfeca
- Start date
According to Line6, the latency in their wireless units is 3-4ms, and to be honest, I just don't notice it at all... I use an 18.5' cable at rehearsals, and wireless at gigs, and never notice any difference between the two...
- georgestrings
I had to make a cable for the system I'm using. It wasn't hard, but I definitely want to replace my 'normal' 1/8" plug with a locking plug as I've heard it blip a few times, causing some nasty (but momentary) static through the amp. I've seen some online - given the absence of thread specifications I can only assume that there is only one type and it will work with the jack on the transmitter.
There are at least two- Countryman uses a larger locking ring, that slides. I suspect that it may be the Switchcraft version.
I'm also looking to buy a wireless system and have found this thread useful. However the more I look the more I am convinced that many of the manufacturers of these units really don't consider how they will be used in the real world.
Firstly why don't any of the rack mounting units have the instrument level output duplicated on the front panel? For guitarists and bassist the next unit in the signal chain is likely to be their amp which has the input jack on the front.
Secondly, as these units are digital why isn't there a digital output too? Either SPDif or AES/EBU. That way those of us with more digital units can bypass at least one stage of A-D/D-A conversion. For Line 6 in particular I would have thought this would be a no-brainer since it could be connected directly to the digital in of their Pod units.
Firstly why don't any of the rack mounting units have the instrument level output duplicated on the front panel? For guitarists and bassist the next unit in the signal chain is likely to be their amp which has the input jack on the front.
Secondly, as these units are digital why isn't there a digital output too? Either SPDif or AES/EBU. That way those of us with more digital units can bypass at least one stage of A-D/D-A conversion. For Line 6 in particular I would have thought this would be a no-brainer since it could be connected directly to the digital in of their Pod units.
I'm not happy with what I'm seeing at the moment, either.
Tried the Line 6 G30 on Saturday, and it sounded great, as good as the Shure PGXD. Smaller and simpler to operate, too, with the non-locking 1/4" jack on the transmitter.
BUT: with regular Duracell alkalines, the battery door was bulging. I could see the battery ends through the gap, and the latch felt flimsy. I can see why many people have had trouble with that. The plastic fastening for the clip was weak, too.
I could fix the G30 transmitter problems with a piece of tape or inner tube around the body of the transmitter to secure the battery door, and a pouch for when the clip breaks off. But why should I have to, on a brand-new product?
The G50's available locally, are all middle-period units with the new firmware, but the old flimsy plastic/metal transmitter jacks.
The G55 isn't available locally yet. nor is the newer G50 with the all-metal jack.
If I had to buy now, I'd probably get the Shure PGXD, but since I'm not in a rush, I think I might wait until June, when I should have a choice between the Line 6 G55, G50's with the all-metal jack, the Audio Technica, the new Shure GLXD, and the PGXD. Maybe the Sony, too, if replacement cables are available by then...
Tried the Line 6 G30 on Saturday, and it sounded great, as good as the Shure PGXD. Smaller and simpler to operate, too, with the non-locking 1/4" jack on the transmitter.
BUT: with regular Duracell alkalines, the battery door was bulging. I could see the battery ends through the gap, and the latch felt flimsy. I can see why many people have had trouble with that. The plastic fastening for the clip was weak, too.
I could fix the G30 transmitter problems with a piece of tape or inner tube around the body of the transmitter to secure the battery door, and a pouch for when the clip breaks off. But why should I have to, on a brand-new product?
The G50's available locally, are all middle-period units with the new firmware, but the old flimsy plastic/metal transmitter jacks.
The G55 isn't available locally yet. nor is the newer G50 with the all-metal jack.
If I had to buy now, I'd probably get the Shure PGXD, but since I'm not in a rush, I think I might wait until June, when I should have a choice between the Line 6 G55, G50's with the all-metal jack, the Audio Technica, the new Shure GLXD, and the PGXD. Maybe the Sony, too, if replacement cables are available by then...
So has anyone used or tried an AKG DMS70 D? The outputs on the back are 1/4" balanced. I'm wondering what gymnastics, if any, would be needed to run that into my amp. It almost seems like it's more for wireless mics. The reason I'm interested in this unit is because it seems to be the only rack-mountable (half space) digital unit in the ~$300 range.
yeah, that's supposed to be like standing 4 feet further away from your amp.
Thanks for the tip, I hadn't heard of the DMS70.
The 1/4" balanced out means you can run it straight into an amp, or with an XLR adapter, into a FOH mixer.
The minimum configuration is a two-channel receiver, and they do a quad version with a built-in line mixer and XLR outs. Could be great for doublers, singer-songwriter types, etc.
But, and it's a big but: there's a disclaimer on the AKG website, that you should turn off all wi-Fi equipment when using it, and these days, that often isn't possible. Then there's the discouraging review from an active bass user for the dual-pack package on Sweetwater, and two pages of appalling user reviews on the Presonus forum:
Invalid Link Removed
These may just be teething pains for a new product, but I wouldn't risk buying one yet.
Anyone suffering with dropouts or other problems with their Line 6 Relay digital wireless system, shopping for a G30, G50, G55 or G90, or simply looking at a competing 2.4GHz system operating in the wi-fi band, should read the following troubleshooting document:
http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2564
They should also check out the user complaints in the Line 6 community pages, and if they are trying to decide between the G30 vs G50, look at the difference in the number of problems: 149 posts and counting for the G50 in one thread alone!
To be fair to Line 6, the people reporting these problems are usually not technicians, and it can be difficult to sort out what is transmitter cable trouble, what is caused by other gear in the signal chain, and what is RF interference.
Still, I take away three new concerns from cruising the Line 6 forum:
One is that Line 6 still publicly touts the Relay system in their advertising and on their website as interference-free, while clearly admitting in private that like all radio systems, their wireless is prone to signal loss and interference because of anything from proximity to nearby metal objects or walls, to WLAN networks, and even microwave ovens!
Their fallback position is actually the true strength of the Line 6 radios: while RF interference can shorten range and even shut down the system, all it will cause is a graceful dropout: you'll never have a Spinal Tap moment, with a cab dispatcher jumping on your audio channel.
The second concern, is a known issue with dropouts caused, not by the G50 connector problem, but by some sort of RF issue. Ths is reported with the G30 as well as the G50 and G90. Although there's evidence that units have been repaired/replaced, it's not clear from forum posts whether this was a problem with specific production runs, or ???
My third concern, is with the overall suitability of consumer-grade, low-cost 2.4GHz digital systems for pro applications.
http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2564
They should also check out the user complaints in the Line 6 community pages, and if they are trying to decide between the G30 vs G50, look at the difference in the number of problems: 149 posts and counting for the G50 in one thread alone!
To be fair to Line 6, the people reporting these problems are usually not technicians, and it can be difficult to sort out what is transmitter cable trouble, what is caused by other gear in the signal chain, and what is RF interference.
Still, I take away three new concerns from cruising the Line 6 forum:
One is that Line 6 still publicly touts the Relay system in their advertising and on their website as interference-free, while clearly admitting in private that like all radio systems, their wireless is prone to signal loss and interference because of anything from proximity to nearby metal objects or walls, to WLAN networks, and even microwave ovens!
Their fallback position is actually the true strength of the Line 6 radios: while RF interference can shorten range and even shut down the system, all it will cause is a graceful dropout: you'll never have a Spinal Tap moment, with a cab dispatcher jumping on your audio channel.
The second concern, is a known issue with dropouts caused, not by the G50 connector problem, but by some sort of RF issue. Ths is reported with the G30 as well as the G50 and G90. Although there's evidence that units have been repaired/replaced, it's not clear from forum posts whether this was a problem with specific production runs, or ???
My third concern, is with the overall suitability of consumer-grade, low-cost 2.4GHz digital systems for pro applications.
The ONLY time I ever experienced any issues with drop outs with my Line 6 ( years of gigging the X2's, G30, G50, G90) was when I would be forced to stand pretty much right next to the receiver. Mind you these would be super quick drop outs. Rock solid unit otherwise, and this was a rare occurrence for me.
Since I started using the Sony DWZ-B30GB, I have not had this issue. Time will be the true test on this unit, but so far so good. I would put it on par with the G50. Maybe the Sony is a little more solid feeing, but sound/feature wise, very similar. I don't think it's superior enough to sell your current Line6, but so far it has proven to be a worthy alternative.
Since I started using the Sony DWZ-B30GB, I have not had this issue. Time will be the true test on this unit, but so far so good. I would put it on par with the G50. Maybe the Sony is a little more solid feeing, but sound/feature wise, very similar. I don't think it's superior enough to sell your current Line6, but so far it has proven to be a worthy alternative.
It took me a whole 2 weeks of being without my G50 transmitter (time transmitter sent to them and returned) and they replaced my TA4F male connector with the new metal type and updated firmware. Highly recommend Line 6
All I can say is that I play in a working band, and one of my guitarists has been using a G50 since they came out, with none of the issues I see frequently brought up... Two other working guitarists in my area that are good friends have had the same results - all 3 are pretty picky about gear, and wouldn't hesitate to complain if they were having any issues...
For myself, I'm over 4 years of using an XDR-95 with 100% reliability, and sound equal to any cable on the market...
I'm not saying those people haven't experienced what they say they have, but can only relate what's happened directly to me and those close to me...
Edited to add: it is possible that my guitarist has experienced some sort of wi-fi conflict with his G50 at one of the venues on our regular rotation - he's going to use my spare XDS-PLUS the next time we play there, and I'll post the results... He doesn't actually experience any dropout there, but gets some sort of noise thru his amp occasionally during a gig there, that doesn't occur any place else... The other guitarist and I don't experience the same thing, even though we're all connected to the same power source - and since I'm on 900mhz, and the other guy is on 700mhz, I'm wondering if it is a 2.4ghz conflict...
- georgestrings
This.
Personal experience depends totally on environment, but at least in my area and the kind of venues I play, the evidence seems to be stacking up in favour of 900MHz, or going with high-end gear, paddle antennae, etc., like the pros.
We're having major, production-affecting wi-fi problems at one of the venues I play regularly, and we haven't even introduced instrument wireless yet.
For a weekend warrior playing small clubs, etc., a G30 (with velcro) and a 20' backup cable is probably all you'll ever need. If you hit a bad room once in a while, it's not the end of the world.
But a lot of the complaints on the L6 forum were from big churches with crowded wi-fi environments, or from touring acts whose staging was dependent on wireless. They were ticked off big time, when problems occurred during important gigs.
I'm a computer consultant by day, supporting veterinary practice management software, and I totally get their concern.
We practically beg our clients not to use wi-fi. In our architecture, the master data file is susceptible to damage from network glitches. Many of our clinics get away with using wireless connections for years at a time, but all it takes is a new neighbour moving in or bad brushes in a ventilation motor, and they're in a world of hurt.
The gig in question is next saturday, so I'll be sure to post up afterwards on this thread, Steve...
I have an XDR-95, an XDS-PLUS, and 3 transmitters - so he's going to use my XDS-PLUS this time around... If he doesn't have any of the past issues, we'll know exactly what's going on...
- georgestrings
I have an XDR-95, an XDS-PLUS, and 3 transmitters - so he's going to use my XDS-PLUS this time around... If he doesn't have any of the past issues, we'll know exactly what's going on...
- georgestrings
aha!
so it can be upgraded to the metal jack! how much did that cost, and did you have to send them the whole thing for a firmware upgrade or just the beltpack?
I just sent my transmitter in for the connector and firmware upgrade/update. My system was under warranty so their was no charge except my shipping cost to Line 6
Hey, Walter.
This was covered on other threads. Apparently, Line 6 will do the jack upgrade for free if your wireless is still under warranty. If not, it's a chargeable service. I don't know how much, but there was some grumbling, so I'm guessing that with shipping, the price is pretty stiff.
For the jack, all they will need is the transmitter. However, if you're sending it away anyway, it would make sense to do the firmware upgrade as well, which means sending them both the transmistter AND receiver. Once again, if you're out of warranty, it's fairly costly.
Reports about turnaround time were pretty variable, with some people waiting a couple of weeks, and others waiting months.
I sold some gear, had the money burning a hole in my pocket, and just picked up a Shure PGXD-14 digital wireless.
Reasons:
1. I'm working in a wi-fi rich environment at several venues. An example: Network A is 2.4GHz, running video streaming, projection and other admin functions. Network B is 5GHz for iPhones and iPads running Presonus QMix for personal monitoring, and OnSong for chord charts. A Line 6 G30 tested perfectly, but earned me dirty looks because it knocked the video streaming computer off the network.
2. Only the older Line 6 Relay devices are available locally. I couldn't see buying a G50 and immediately mailing it away to get the jack upgraded, or improvising a miniature jock strap for the G30 to keep the battery door from exploding.
3. The Shure transmits on the 900MHz band, and a rental unit didn't interfere with surrounding computers and other devices.
4. Although there's a fair amount of plastic in the Shure transmitter, it had a quality feel, and the clip was better-designed than the one on the G30. The battery door closed easily and securely on a variety of NiMH rechargeable batteries, from 1400 to 2450mAh. No rattles, no problems.
In the end, price was a non-issue, as I got a price-match deal that put the Shure within $20 of the G50.
I never did get to check out the new 2.4GHz Shure that's coming in a month or so, or the Sony, AKG and Audio Technica digital models that recently came out. Still, based on my need to avoid the 2.4Ghz band, my choice was clear.
I will continue to report on PGXD-14 and how it works, and will run comparisons once I'm finally able to A/B some of the competing devices.
Reasons:
1. I'm working in a wi-fi rich environment at several venues. An example: Network A is 2.4GHz, running video streaming, projection and other admin functions. Network B is 5GHz for iPhones and iPads running Presonus QMix for personal monitoring, and OnSong for chord charts. A Line 6 G30 tested perfectly, but earned me dirty looks because it knocked the video streaming computer off the network.
2. Only the older Line 6 Relay devices are available locally. I couldn't see buying a G50 and immediately mailing it away to get the jack upgraded, or improvising a miniature jock strap for the G30 to keep the battery door from exploding.
3. The Shure transmits on the 900MHz band, and a rental unit didn't interfere with surrounding computers and other devices.
4. Although there's a fair amount of plastic in the Shure transmitter, it had a quality feel, and the clip was better-designed than the one on the G30. The battery door closed easily and securely on a variety of NiMH rechargeable batteries, from 1400 to 2450mAh. No rattles, no problems.
In the end, price was a non-issue, as I got a price-match deal that put the Shure within $20 of the G50.
I never did get to check out the new 2.4GHz Shure that's coming in a month or so, or the Sony, AKG and Audio Technica digital models that recently came out. Still, based on my need to avoid the 2.4Ghz band, my choice was clear.
I will continue to report on PGXD-14 and how it works, and will run comparisons once I'm finally able to A/B some of the competing devices.
Yessss!
4:30pm sound check on Friday afternoon, rehearsal, 20-minute break for a slice of Pizza, a 15 minute breather while the road manager sold CD's, and finished the last set at 11pm.
Nearly 6 hours of playing through my PGXD14 on a new set of Duracell rechargeables, and never a dropout or a glitch. Bopped all over the stage, grooved for a while with the rhythm guitarist, very liberating to not be tied down.
Cable connectors, battery door, etc., all solid as a rock.
On to a conference on Saturday/Sunday, about the same amount of play time each day. Kept one pair of Duracells plugged into the 3-hour "fast" charger, swapped them each day.
Interesting sidenote: Small stage, and we had problems synching our iPads because of a 2.4Gig wi-fi problem (turned out to be the venue's network).
Thankfully, it had nothing to do with the 900MHz Shure (I turned it off for a while to be certain). Just another reason to be glad that I didn't buy one of the wi-fi band units.
All in all, I'm very happy with my purchase.
4:30pm sound check on Friday afternoon, rehearsal, 20-minute break for a slice of Pizza, a 15 minute breather while the road manager sold CD's, and finished the last set at 11pm.
Nearly 6 hours of playing through my PGXD14 on a new set of Duracell rechargeables, and never a dropout or a glitch. Bopped all over the stage, grooved for a while with the rhythm guitarist, very liberating to not be tied down.
Cable connectors, battery door, etc., all solid as a rock.
On to a conference on Saturday/Sunday, about the same amount of play time each day. Kept one pair of Duracells plugged into the 3-hour "fast" charger, swapped them each day.
Interesting sidenote: Small stage, and we had problems synching our iPads because of a 2.4Gig wi-fi problem (turned out to be the venue's network).
Thankfully, it had nothing to do with the 900MHz Shure (I turned it off for a while to be certain). Just another reason to be glad that I didn't buy one of the wi-fi band units.
All in all, I'm very happy with my purchase.
Latest posts
-
-
-
-
The Bartolini BH2: Why Does It Sound So Dark? My EHB1265MS Experiments- Latest: funkinbottom
-
