Best Music College

[FlySig]

I just caught this now. This is incorrect. I received both Pell Grants and Stafford Loans (both federally subsidized) while at Berklee.

When was that? When we looked for my daughter there were no federally subsidized loans available. Due to our income, my kids do not qualify for federal grants, but there are some tax credits which are small but help.

As we toured Berklee I found myself wishing I was 18 again and could go to Berklee. Aside from the cost, I can't imagine a better place for someone who is determined (and has the talent) to become a professional musician.

In terms of advising real world teens on what to do for college? That is not so easy. My profession is aviation, and I see a lot of 25 to 35 yr old pilots who have $100k or more in student debt and who are making $30k or less per year. They're working a second job to make ends meet and to make their loan payments. The vast majority of these people have a degree in "aviation", which is useless. They get laid off from a flying job and have no marketable skills. Unfortunately, I see a degree in "music performance" just as useless outside of music.

I hear great things about Belmont and some other schools though know nothing personally about them. I do know that our state university has an excellent music department.

The practical student would get a degree in something else which can have an application to music. Computer science, materials, electrical engineering, law, accounting, marketing, etc. But I well know and understand the desire to Live the Dream in a particular field.

The best advice for a young man is to live his life as if his father has already passed on. The best advice for a father is to set his son free at 18. My son will be on his own for college (or whatever he wants to do) next summer. That knowledge has motivated him to excel in school and to seek his path into college.

Sorry for the ramble...

 

[bass_case]

I graduated from U. Miami and was lucky enough to study with Roy Vogt when he was a student teacher, and with Don Coffman, who still heads the jazz bass dept. Roy was a great teacher and a hell of a nice guy. His bass program sounds wonderful.

Having the Nashville music scene at your doorstep would be a big plus.

 

[bass_case]

As far as college in general: what you do not want to do is run up a huge debt load. Keep your grades up and do whatever you need to do to get scholarships.

Keep in mind that people don't get a music degree and apply for a job as a session musician. You got to pay your dues first, but you can't pay them if you have monster loan payments.

Good luck!

 

[gjbassist]

My son is a freshman at the University of Tulsa where he is double majoring in music and mathematics. He looked at many schools and received a lot of scholarship offers but ended up at TU. I don't believe they have a bass specific curriculum (they do offer a BA in instrumental performance) but the music program in general is quite good and they have a nice new performing arts center. They also give out some nice scholarships! My son was awarded one of the Presidential Scholarships which is full tuition with room and board! He had a 5.0 GPA in his high school IB program so you will want to keep your grades up to get a shot at that kind of scholarship! As a parent I like the idea that he is double majoring too. I love music and totally encourage his pursuit of a music education and career, but it's nice to know that he has something else he can rely on as well.

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[Marial]

To the OP: Do you have any interest in teaching or are you going strictly for performance/composition? There are a few ways to make a living in the music world and it seems to me that being an educator is one way to go. Maybe something to consider is whether or not a school has a good education/teaching program and making that your second major or, at least, minor.

 

[wrench45us]

I worry about kids in these highly competitive situations and institutions burning out before they have a chance to discover an ongoing source of pleasure/satisfaction in what they want to do and how to go about that.

I have an acquaintance who went to North Texas. The stars of the music department were fully committed by their excellence to playing programs in school. The 'others' went out and played in local clubs and jams with other students. One path circumscribed, one pretty open. Which group do you suppose had higher percentage of burnout?
A friend of my wife's nephew went to Berklee 20 years ago and is off in Asia now on a seriously deranged mid life crisis. Too many years working too hard to barely make it took all the pleasure out of his musical career, so now he seems to feel entitled to make up for lost time.
If I had a child of college age, I would sooner they somehow be able to maintain their passion for music and make a living. The dual major, low debt route makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Lee Moses]

When was that? When we looked for my daughter there were no federally subsidized loans available. Due to our income, my kids do not qualify for federal grants, but there are some tax credits which are small but help.

I was there in 91-93. Thankfully, I was able to establish myself as an independent in the years between high school and Berklee, so my parents' income did not affect my eligibility. That made the Pell Grant possible, but I think pretty much anybody can get a Stafford Loan.

What was the explanation you were given as to why a Berklee student couldn't receive federally subsidized loans? Berklee is a regionally accredited college, just like Northeastern, Boston University, or Harvard, so it's not like Musicians Institute or similar schools in that respect. I know that's been quite a while since I was there, but I can't imagine that anything would have happened to change the ability of Berklee students to get federally subsidized loans.

In terms of advising real world teens on what to do for college? That is not so easy. My profession is aviation, and I see a lot of 25 to 35 yr old pilots who have $100k or more in student debt and who are making $30k or less per year. They're working a second job to make ends meet and to make their loan payments. The vast majority of these people have a degree in "aviation", which is useless. They get laid off from a flying job and have no marketable skills. Unfortunately, I see a degree in "music performance" just as useless outside of music.

Perhaps. But very few degrees in any field actually prepare graduates with the skills they need to jump right into a career and succeed. Most skills are acquired on the job and in the training an actual employer provides.

I started as a performance major, but switched to music education to have a more tangible use for my degree. That said, I never went into teaching. But I was able to take my music degree and beat out BBA graduates for a position as a financial advisor with a major brokerage firm. A college degree in and of itself still means something, regardless of major.

 

[FlySig]

I was there in 91-93.
But very few degrees in any field actually prepare graduates with the skills they need to jump right into a career and succeed. Most skills are acquired on the job and in the training an actual employer provides.

I started as a performance major, but switched to music education to have a more tangible use for my degree. That said, I never went into teaching. But I was able to take my music degree and beat out BBA graduates for a position as a financial advisor with a major brokerage firm. A college degree in and of itself still means something, regardless of major.

I agree that many degrees don't prepare students for a specific job or career. It isn't just music. My many coworkers with a BA in "Aviation" have zero specific qualifications for any job. My eldest daughter started college as an Art History major, but changed to a medical field after discovering she would have no job prospects in art history.

An engineering degree, applied math, and accounting all have good job prospects. Those degrees are worth taking on some debt.

I advised all 3 of my kids to follow their passions but to always keep in mind they have to feed themselves. Part of the process is to figure out what their priorities are, and how high on the list money fits in.

Having said all that, I gave up a lucrative engineering career to go into flying. I will never make up the money I've lost! There have been a lot of dues to pay in this career, too. A passion is a passion, and for some people it overrides other factors.

 

[lpcarter]

As someone who went to music school... I would suggest not going...

Especially if you want to be doing contemporary work. You know how to practice, now all you need to do is get out there and make connections. Network. Bust your ass. Don't spend 4 years waiting to start your career going to school.

 

[Lee Moses]

That would probably work just fine for some. And it's probably true that some schools do little to provide the future connections a musician will need to establish himself. But attending some music schools provides an opportunity for networking that you will not find anywhere else. Berklee is loaded with future professional musicians and future stars across multiple genres. Attending a college like that gives you the opportunity to build lifelong connections when you're in the dorms with them, eating with them, in classes with them, and maybe playing music with them. I just don't know of a whole lot of networking opportunities much better than that.

 

[Roy Vogt]

That would probably work just fine for some. And it's probably true that some schools do little to provide the future connections a musician will need to establish himself. But attending some music schools provides an opportunity for networking that you will not find anywhere else. Berklee is loaded with future professional musicians and future stars across multiple genres. Attending a college like that gives you the opportunity to build lifelong connections when you're in the dorms with them, eating with them, in classes with them, and maybe playing music with them. I just don't know of a whole lot of networking opportunities much better than that.

True. Bryan Beller and Stu Hamm would likely have not played with Steve Vai had it not been for their Berklee connection.

 

[Reddog01]

One other pearl to add (who knows -- it might be a pearl), many times there is a huge difference between the kind of attention that an undergraduate gets than the attention that a graduate student gets. Being from Texas, I know many undergraduate students who simply got lost in the crowd at the University of North Texas. However, those folks who decided to work on their master's or doctorates from UNT found a different experience.

 

[Lownote38]

Try your best to refrain from jokes/ insults here:

I'm a 15 year old bassist, I practice 6 hours a day, I'm probably on the higher side of intermediate (Dream Theater, Mr. Bungle,etc) and I've been playing for two years. My goal here is to go to music college and become a session musician. I get straight A's and the occasional B at school, taking honors and AP classes. So I ask you these questions:

what is a good music school to be a session bassist?

How hard is it to get into that school?

How hard is it to get a scholarship to that school?

What can I do to make a more successful career playing music?

Thanks in advance for answers, and please try not to joke about low pay/ insult me for wanting to pursue the "rock star" career.

Save your money and take lessons from good teachers. Music school won't necessarily help you become successful as a session musician, or have a successful career as a musician. That piece of paper is expensive, and getting a scholarship isn't easy either unless you're already an awesome player. It's cheaper to learn from books you find and good instructors. Most successful commercial music professionals can read music and know music theory, but they probably didn't go to school for that information. If you were going to be a classical player, then schooling is essential for getting you into a professional orchestra, but in the commercial realm, the degree doesn't help much.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Save your money and take lessons from good teachers. Music school won't necessarily help you become successful as a session musician, or have a successful career as a musician. That piece of paper is expensive, and getting a scholarship isn't easy either unless you're already an awesome player. It's cheaper to learn from books you find and good instructors. Most successful commercial music professionals can read music and know music theory, but they probably didn't go to school for that information. If you were going to be a classical player, then schooling is essential for getting you into a professional orchestra, but in the commercial realm, the degree doesn't help much.

This is interesting to me considering you're a former student, a fine player and an alumni of where I teach. A few questions:
1. Did you find that attending Belmont helped you network with other musicians in Nashville?
2. What was relevant to your life as a player now?
3. What was irrelevant to your life as a player now?
4. What do you wish was taught to you while you were here?
I will agree that as a sideman or session player no one will ever ask you if you have a degree. This is very likely why a lot of Berklee students (particularly in the old days) seemed to attend for a couple of years, network, and get out on a gig. Players like Al Dimeola, Jan Hammer and Jeff Berlin did this. I think players like Esperanza Spalding, Evan Marien and Matt Garrison may have finished but I'm not sure so if someone can enlighten me that would be great.
One of the things I'm going to attempt to accomplish this year is a Belmont Bass Alumni Advisory Board that will come in at talk with the current Bass Majors sometime this Spring. I'd be honored if you'd contribute, Frank.

 

[Lee Moses]

Good points and good questions. I can't answer for the other two, but I was at Berklee at the same time as Matt Garrison (he was a couple of years ahead of me), and am quite sure that he attended 4 years.

 

[Lownote38]

This is interesting to me considering you're a former student, a fine player and an alumni of where I teach. A few questions:
1. Did you find that attending Belmont helped you network with other musicians in Nashville?
2. What was relevant to your life as a player now?
3. What was irrelevant to your life as a player now?
4. What do you wish was taught to you while you were here?
I will agree that as a sideman or session player no one will ever ask you if you have a degree. This is very likely why a lot of Berklee students (particularly in the old days) seemed to attend for a couple of years, network, and get out on a gig. Players like Al Dimeola, Jan Hammer and Jeff Berlin did this. I think players like Esperanza Spalding, Evan Marien and Matt Garrison may have finished but I'm not sure so if someone can enlighten me that would be great.
One of the things I'm going to attempt to accomplish this year is a Belmont Bass Alumni Advisory Board that will come in at talk with the current Bass Majors sometime this Spring. I'd be honored if you'd contribute, Frank.

Hey Roy!
To answer your questions...
1. Yes. Attending Belmont helped me network with not just musicians, but other people in the industry
2. Everything music related is relevant to me now, and other than the actual music part (which I did learn at Belmont from great teachers!), I learned the rest through experience in the biz.
3. Nothing I learned in the music department is irrelevant to my life in music now (other than being called a Yank a lot when I first arrived). It just cost me a lot of money!
4. You taught me everything I wished for and more than I thought was possible. Other teachers there did the same. (thank you especially to people like you, John Arnn, John Pell and others who taught in such different ways! I learned how to come at musical knowledge from different directions due to those experiences).

I'm definitely not knocking the music (and more specifically bass) program at Belmont. I would never do that. What I learned through my degree is something I wouldn't trade for anything.
I guess what I was getting at is that someone could take private lessons and study theory/ear training with their instructor and gain a lot of knowledge that way as well while spending less money. I needed discipline musically and scholastically, and going to school for it gave me that.
I would be extremely honored to contribute as an alumnus to your current bass students! I've learned a lot about the business since graduating and have built up quite the story that could help better their understanding of the big picture of the music biz (as well as more bass related things of course!).
If you get it happening, definitely let me know. I'd love to participate!

 

[Roy Vogt]

Hey Roy!
To answer your questions...
1. Yes. Attending Belmont helped me network with not just musicians, but other people in the industry
2. Everything music related is relevant to me now, and other than the actual music part (which I did learn at Belmont from great teachers!), I learned the rest through experience in the biz.
3. Nothing I learned in the music department is irrelevant to my life in music now (other than being called a Yank a lot when I first arrived). It just cost me a lot of money!
4. You taught me everything I wished for and more than I thought was possible. Other teachers there did the same. (thank you especially to people like you, John Arnn, John Pell and others who taught in such different ways! I learned how to come at musical knowledge from different directions due to those experiences).

I'm definitely not knocking the music (and more specifically bass) program at Belmont. I would never do that. What I learned through my degree is something I wouldn't trade for anything.
I guess what I was getting at is that someone could take private lessons and study theory/ear training with their instructor and gain a lot of knowledge that way as well while spending less money. I needed discipline musically and scholastically, and going to school for it gave me that.
I would be extremely honored to contribute as an alumnus to your current bass students! I've learned a lot about the business since graduating and have built up quite the story that could help better their understanding of the big picture of the music biz (as well as more bass related things of course!).
If you get it happening, definitely let me know. I'd love to participate!

Thanks, Frank! One thing I wish was taught and emphasized more at Belmont (and a lot of Music Schools) is strategy for building your career. I think Zoro (who is on Belmont's Drum Faculty) did a splendid job with his book The Big Gig
http://www.amazon.com/The-Big-Gig-Big-Picture-Thinking/dp/0739082434
He actually taught a class based on the book. I so wish someone had taught me some of his strategies when I first moved to Nashville fresh out of Grad School.
Belmont is not cheap in that it's a private college. It's not as expensive as Berklee, U of M or Musicians Institute, but not as inexpensive as state schools. There are some great state schools and a possible strategy is to attend one of those and attend your Dream School as a Grad Student (maybe even a Grad Assistant with Tuition Waiver/Reduction). It was the only way I could afford to attend The University of Miami when I did. If at all possible, try to avoid carrying a massive student loan debt any way you can. A lot of the Service Bands (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines) offer tuition reimbursement/student loan payoffs as perks for the gig and commitment. Pacman (one of the Talkbass Moderators) can answer more questions about that since he spent a significant part of his career in Army and Air Force Bands.
Trying to make a start at an career with wildly fluctuating incomes like the Music Business with 6 figures in Student Loans seems like a recipe for heartbreak to me.

 

[Gaolee]

Here's my take on the discussion about whether to major in music or not:

30 years ago, or so, when I graduated from college, certain people got scooped up for big bucks jobs. They were the business and accounting types. Computer engineering people weren't in all that much demand and times got really tight for them later in the '80s. Then computer engineering degree holders came into vogue, and companies would hire them by the dozen, offering high salaries and then just weeding through them. Nothing much has changed except what degree is hot. Electrical engineers and computer types are back in. It will change again. If you just happen to have studied whatever is hot when you graduate, your ticket is punched. At least for a while. If you happen to have studied something else, even if it's nuclear physics, and that major isn't the kind of trained idiot that some mid-level MBA has been tasked to hire, then forget it.

I have observed this for a long time, and I don't see it changing. But, that doesn't mean blow off school and don't bother with a degree. Get a degree but major in something you will do well at. Learn good work habits. Learn to apply yourself and take advantages of whatever resources are open to you. Go for it and don't look back. The worst thing that can happen is you end up with a four year degree from an accredited college and with good recommendations from the professors you learned from. Go after it with both hands and both feet. If it doesn't work out and you have to go a different direction, that's not a failure. That's just circumstance. If you go in with the idea that you are going to be an employed electrical engineer, even if it means you are miserable, and you then spend 40 years being miserable and wishing you had at least tried something else, that's failure.

That's what we told our son when he decided to major in music. He's going to have to do some really lousy jobs to get by, and he's going to have to chase some really lousy gigs for a while until he gets some kind of reputation in the industry. That's up to him to do, and if all else fails, he's got a four year degree with good grades. It could be a whole lot worse.

 

[wrench45us]

It would be difficult to determine exactly how much the 'best' music college would contribute to a student's success. It's an intriguing question that college admissions and staff probably wrestle with more even than parents and students.

Having been through a small liberal arts college back when a very good summer job would cover most of my tuition for the year, conditions may have changed enough to disqualify me from having any relevant advice. But in looking back, I'd say it was pretty clear that 'we' could all recognize the graduates that would fit well and do well in the 'real' world and those who would wander some before finding their niche and those who weren't likely to ever quite 'succeed'. It really has more to do with personality traits: work ethic, perseverance, personable behavior than grades or academic achievement.

For example, I've heard a professor quoted as saying most of his A and B students ended up working for his C students, because the A and B students were too smart to take the risks required to start and run a business.

Given that a young person has all those traits and understands how to take advantage of the opportunities provided, then what? Does a given school's reputation and networking connections make a difference? Studies indicate a Harvard degree does help getting a position, but the same studies also indicate that's just the first step and its performance on the job that determines career trajectory.
The professors/teachers that I learned the most from didn't limit the (life) lessons to their subject matter. I'd look to go someplace that encouraged and had a history along those lines.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Here's my take on the discussion about whether to major in music or not:

30 years ago, or so, when I graduated from college, certain people got scooped up for big bucks jobs. They were the business and accounting types. Computer engineering people weren't in all that much demand and times got really tight for them later in the '80s. Then computer engineering degree holders came into vogue, and companies would hire them by the dozen, offering high salaries and then just weeding through them. Nothing much has changed except what degree is hot. Electrical engineers and computer types are back in. It will change again. If you just happen to have studied whatever is hot when you graduate, your ticket is punched. At least for a while. If you happen to have studied something else, even if it's nuclear physics, and that major isn't the kind of trained idiot that some mid-level MBA has been tasked to hire, then forget it.

I have observed this for a long time, and I don't see it changing. But, that doesn't mean blow off school and don't bother with a degree. Get a degree but major in something you will do well at. Learn good work habits. Learn to apply yourself and take advantages of whatever resources are open to you. Go for it and don't look back. The worst thing that can happen is you end up with a four year degree from an accredited college and with good recommendations from the professors you learned from. Go after it with both hands and both feet. If it doesn't work out and you have to go a different direction, that's not a failure. That's just circumstance. If you go in with the idea that you are going to be an employed electrical engineer, even if it means you are miserable, and you then spend 40 years being miserable and wishing you had at least tried something else, that's failure.

That's what we told our son when he decided to major in music. He's going to have to do some really lousy jobs to get by, and he's going to have to chase some really lousy gigs for a while until he gets some kind of reputation in the industry. That's up to him to do, and if all else fails, he's got a four year degree with good grades. It could be a whole lot worse.

Plus 1,000. A four year degree says you can think and your grades speak to how well.

Most musicians have a day job to make ends meet. Why not have a day job that will pay the bills and then play music because you enjoy it? This seems to be a better way of thinking about how you will spend your life.

I'm retired now, but, one thing that kept things on an even keel was to know what my "fall down to job" could be. In my case it was teaching "stuff" in the corporate World. A four year BBA and a certificate saying I'm a Certified Training Professional got me into the interview. Now days, in my field that four year degree may not be enough to qualify for the interview. Seems like a Masters now days starts the interview process.

Give some thoughts to having a job first and then look to filling your need for music as a side venture. Sure takes the pressure off when the bills are paid, the wife is happy and the kids have plenty to eat.

Good luck.